Removal of Positionals

[UkcsAlias]

I personally see zero positives to positionals. They do not create any form of good engagement.

Thats just you then... and the recommendation is to not play a melee dps then. There are multiple jobs for this very reason.

Positionals are one of the best features because they enable skill diffirences to be shown through numbers. More skill on a melee dps means more damage. Even if you cannot see the numbers, you can still notice a boss getting killed just that little bit faster (which on savage/ultimate means more enrage timer remaining).

You are asking for something on a similar level to removing headshots for a sniper in a shooter. A weapon type thats all about accuracy. The melee dps in this game is just like that, and therefor has those gimmicks.

The moment positionals are removed, you essentialy removed the entire need for the melee dps job to exist in its entirety. The ranged dps damage penalty at that point becomes irrelevant since a melee dps has the same uptime (otherwise you can remove ranged dps entirely). Positionals enable situations in which melee dpses shine, and situations in which they dont. But on average, they are just balanced.

Variety in a game is good. Otherwise just keep playing de_dust2... as then you know nothing will ever change.

[Ransu]

Positionals are one of the best features because they enable skill diffirences to be shown through numbers.

Sitting on the corner of a circle and moving 1inch to the left or right is hardly what I'd call "skill." Skill is maintaining your rotation, resource management etc... There is zero skill involved in positionals and they add zero engagement to a fight. They are completely pointless. If they stay, they stay, if they don't, they don't. I don't really care either way, but pretending they add anything to the combat is laughable.

You are asking for something on a similar level to removing headshots for a sniper in a shooter. A weapon type thats all about accuracy. The melee dps in this game is just like that, and therefor has those gimmicks.

lmao what? You seriously tried to compared a skilled precision shot to mindlessly stepping to the left or right of the corner circle?

The moment positionals are removed, you essentialy removed the entire need for the melee dps job to exist in its entirety.

*looks at other mmos like swtor and wow*

Ya your statement here is kind of dumb.

[Mikey_R]

Sitting on the corner of a circle and moving 1inch to the left or right is hardly what I'd call "skill." Skill is maintaining your rotation, resource management etc... There is zero skill involved in positionals and they add zero engagement to a fight. They are completely pointless. If they stay, they stay, if they don't, they don't. I don't really care either way, but pretending they add anything to the combat is laughable.

Whilst that is true if you only count a striking dummy, the fun part comes when you have to try and hit them around mechanics.

I can use a similar case for cast times. You just stand there and not move. Hardly something I would call skill, might as well get rid of them. Obviously, this is a bad take as everyone knows, as soon as you have a mechanic that needs you to move, then cast times suddenly have a big impact on how you play.

Now, True North being as accessible as it is does nothing to help Positionals and the skill required to land them. Making Tue North more limiting, as backwards as it sounds, would make positionals more satisfying to land as you would be required to plan out your movement more. The same can also be said about old Riddle of Earth, making positionals something you didn't have to worry about.

All this to say, positionals were not the issue, the issue was the multitude of ways to make positionals inconsequential. The same can be seen with Summoner. Many many people complain about the lack of cast times on Summoner, and rightfully so. You signed up for a caster, but it doesn't really cast. In the same way removing all cast bars makes a caster not feel like a caster, (effectively) removing most positionals makes them fell pointless.

[Ransu]

Whilst that is true if you only count a striking dummy, the fun part comes when you have to try and hit them around mechanics.

99% of the time true north is available when a mechanic comes up and you can't hit a positional. True north also being an oGCD makes this a moot point along with the fact bosses are pretty static in nearly every fight minus a random turn here and there where they move to the edge of the stage for a mechanic...which again, true north...

I can use a similar case for cast times. You just stand there and not move. Hardly something I would call skill, might as well get rid of them. Obviously, this is a bad take as everyone knows, as soon as you have a mechanic that needs you to move, then cast times suddenly have a big impact on how you play.

Comparing caster play to positionals is straight up stupid. Sorry, not sorry, they are not comparable at all. Slide canceling, preplanning leyline placements etc... are massively different from whatever sklillset people seem to think comes from positionals (there are none)

Now, True North being as accessible as it is does nothing to help Positionals and the skill required to land them. Making Tue North more limiting, as backwards as it sounds, would make positionals more satisfying to land as you would be required to plan out your movement more. The same can also be said about old Riddle of Earth, making positionals something you didn't have to worry about.

It really wouldn't. All this would do is make boss fights even more limited in design as they try to maintain what little balance there is left between melee and ranged.

All this to say, positionals were not the issue, the issue was the multitude of ways to make positionals inconsequential. The same can be seen with Summoner. Many many people complain about the lack of cast times on Summoner, and rightfully so. You signed up for a caster, but it doesn't really cast. In the same way removing all cast bars makes a caster not feel like a caster, (effectively) removing most positionals makes them fell pointless.

Positionals are being made inconsequential because the devs are slowly seeing them as a problem and a limitation to boss fight designs. Its why so many boss fights now are having full circles that disable positional requirements. P2S was one of my favorite fights from the last tier because there was so many interesting mechanics and so much moving around and the boss jumping around etc... which made the fight a lot of fun and the devs had the freedom to do that because they didn't need to account for positionals. If that fight had to take positionals into account it would have been way more static and several mechanics would have been different. Would have likely been a boring fight.

If we can get better job designs (Tanks and Healers included), no ranged tax and better fights, i agree with positionals removal.

I'm fine with ranged taxed going away now that uptime for melee is basically 100% due to the massive hitboxes lol.

[Mikey_R]

99% of the time true north is available when a mechanic comes up and you can't hit a positional. True north also being an oGCD makes this a moot point along with the fact bosses are pretty static in nearly every fight minus a random turn here and there where they move to the edge of the stage for a mechanic...which again, true north...

I already stated that True North is one of the reasons why positionals seem pointless and that it should be more restrictive. With that, it also means you shouldn't necessarily be able to hit all positionals, however, a skilled player will be able to hit more and more as they learn the fight and so contribute more, just like how BLM has to plan all the instacasts so that they can keep casting.

Comparing caster play to positionals is straight up stupid. Sorry, not sorry, they are not comparable at all. Slide canceling, preplanning leyline placements etc... are massively different from whatever sklillset people seem to think comes from positionals (there are none)

At the very core, it is about restricting movement options. Casters do this by having cast times, melees did this by having positionals. Since they are different limitations for the same problem, the player has to employ different mindsets for each, which is what made them a more unique experience. And, just to point out, even if you want to talk about bosses rotating randomly, you can predict when the boss is going to turn, fights are scripted after all, and for the most part, they will just turn and face a player, so anticipating this by moving to a more favourable position to react better is part of the fun, in the same way BLM plans out their movement tool usage.

It really wouldn't. All this would do is make boss fights even more limited in design as they try to maintain what little balance there is left between melee and ranged.

Positionals are being made inconsequential because the devs are slowly seeing them as a problem and a limitation to boss fight designs. Its why so many boss fights now are having full circles that disable positional requirements. P2S was one of my favorite fights from the last tier because there was so many interesting mechanics and so much moving around and the boss jumping around etc... which made the fight a lot of fun and the devs had the freedom to do that because they didn't need to account for positionals. If that fight had to take positionals into account it would have been way more static and several mechanics would have been different. Would have likely been a boring fight.

In what ways does it limit fight design? What is it about bosses that have a full ring that means you couldn't have positionals be relevant in them? Considering what we have had in the past, I see no reason why it would limit fight design.

Now, for a fun take, does anyone expect to be able to keep a caster GCD rolling full time and lose no damage? No. Every time you clip the GCD, or have to move where you cannot cast, or even use a GCD on a weaker action (Reprise/Scathe), it is all potential damage loss. This is generally seen as accepted, however, if a melee misses a positional, suddenly, people start complaining. Hot take, you shouldn't necessarily hit every positional, in the same way casters won't necessarily be optimal in their GCDs. So why is it one is more accepted than the other?

[Ransu]

I already stated that True North is one of the reasons why positionals seem pointless and that it should be more restrictive. With that, it also means you shouldn't necessarily be able to hit all positionals.

No, this is a terrible take. If positionals are about "skill" and then you remove the ability to hit all positionals during a fight you now create a system of frustration for a player because no matter how good they are they will hit a dps loss with zero ways to mitigate it.

In what ways does it limit fight design? What is it about bosses that have a full ring that means you couldn't have positionals be relevant in them? Considering what we have had in the past, I see no reason why it would limit fight design.

Limited or removal of true north would force boss designs to be more static. The reason why P2S for example is a circle is because of how you have to position yourself around the stage for mechanics and how often the boss jumps around. DRG for example, would be impossible to hit all their positionals in that fight which is WHY they made it a full circle target to remove positional requirements and it made for an interesting boss fight. I'd rather have that than the static design where a boss barely moves to account for positionals.

Now, for a fun take, does anyone expect to be able to keep a caster GCD rolling full time and lose no damage? No. Every time you clip the GCD, or have to move where you cannot cast, or even use a GCD on a weaker action (Reprise/Scathe), it is all potential damage loss. This is generally seen as accepted, however, if a melee misses a positional, suddenly, people start complaining. Hot take, you shouldn't necessarily hit every positional, in the same way casters won't necessarily be optimal in their GCDs. So why is it one is more accepted than the other?

I can't speak for the other casters as I don't mess with them in end game, but yes as a BLM I fully expect you to keep your GCD's rolling and not clip GCD's. There are enough tools/instant casts available for when you need to move. The only fight where I wanted to pull my hair out this tier was P7S with the running back and forth to bait circles, but its still 100% doable to always have something casting.

The only reason scathe is on my hotbar is to troll my raid leader so he sees that single scathe at the very end of the fight where I throw it out at 1% for the luls. Otherwise, if you're actually using scathe for mobility you're playing BLM wrong as you shouldn't even be wasting a slot for that skill.

Your "hot take" on the positionals is still a garbage take.

Wouldn't that apply for nearly every basic increase to apm?

• Kaiten? I just don't really see the benefit of it. It wasn't difficult to maintain and it didn't really add anything imo. If it stays, it stays, if they doesn't then it doesn't and nothing really changes if it goes.
• Shinten? I just don't really see the benefit of it. It wasn't difficult to maintain and it didn't really add anything imo. If it stays, it stays, if they doesn't then it doesn't and nothing really changes if it goes.
• The Forbidden Chakra / Enlightenment? I just don't really see the benefit of them. They're not difficult to maintain and they don't really add anything imo. If they stay, they stay, if they don't then they don't and nothing really changes if they go.
• Edge/Flood of Shadow? I just don't really see the benefit of them. They're not difficult to maintain and they don't really add anything imo. If they stay, they stay, if they don't then they don't and nothing really changes if they go.

Except kaiten had a direct impact in your resource management and rotation loop management. Stepping 1inch to the left or right to hit a positional isn't even close to the same kind of engagement.

Shinten spam sucks and I wouldn't really miss it.

I don't play the other jobs with those skills mentioned in end game so I won't comment on them.

-What do you think you will do when there's no positionals? You are definitely not going to be dancing around the arena when no mechanics are going on.

-Positionals at least keep you awake and give you extra layers of consideration while performing your rotation.

-The same thing I do now... Stand in one spot and move 1inch to the left or right of the ring because you don't need to be fully at the flank or rear for positionals to count. Literally nothing changes other than the fact I no longer need to pointless move 1inch to the left or right of a circle and then pop true north during mechanics.

-If you need positionals to keep you awake then there are bigger problems at play with combat engagement and boss designs.

[Aco505]

-The same thing I do now... Stand in one spot and move 1inch to the left or right of the ring because you don't need to be fully at the flank or rear for positionals to count. Literally nothing changes other than the fact I no longer need to pointless move 1inch to the left or right of a circle and then pop true north during mechanics.

-If you need positionals to keep you awake then there are bigger problems at play with combat engagement and boss designs.

This kind of comment tells me you don't play melee often or in a variety of high end duties. Yes, this could work for a boss like P6S that is mostly stationary and pretty much a target dummy. It doesn't work in a boss like P5S that is constantly moving or rotating or in any ultimate, especially if the tanks are not doing their positioning job properly. Is it as simple as standing and moving an inch or two during, for instance, the first phase of TOP where you can easily miss positionals even if you play very well?

The argument of moving a tiny bit could also be used for slidecasting windows, or literally anything that involves moving the minimum amount of distance such as dodging an AoE for a mechanic. Might as well just remove these?

Talking about the positioning of positionals by using just dummy fights that provide no challenge is hardly an argument. If the issue is that they're not impactful enough, then make them be a 5% dps loss if you miss them all instead of 3%. Or 10% if you really fancy it. The point is to hit them because they are a dps gain and so it's right to strive to get them all.

And yes, play DRG and then play RPR and tell me which of the two keeps you more awake between cooldowns or burst windows in regards to positioning. You have to continuously keep positionals into account for the former.

The point is not that they're the most engaging thing in the world, but that they add to the overall gameplay and feel of melee jobs.

[Mikey_R]

No, this is a terrible take. If positionals are about "skill" and then you remove the ability to hit all positionals during a fight you now create a system of frustration for a player because no matter how good they are they will hit a dps loss with zero ways to mitigate it.

The skill is in getting as many as you can. The problem is people put the restrictions on themselves that they HAVE to hit every single one, when it isn't the case. The odd one missed here or there isn't going to impact performance much, but doing it throughout the fight is going to be detrimental. In the same way having to cancel a cast here and there isn't going to massively impact performance, unless it happens constantly. Oh, and because I suspect the question will be asked, I expect somewhere around 85%-90% of positionals to be hit in a fight, any more than that and that person has very very good fight knowledge.

Limited or removal of true north would force boss designs to be more static. The reason why P2S for example is a circle is because of how you have to position yourself around the stage for mechanics and how often the boss jumps around. DRG for example, would be impossible to hit all their positionals in that fight which is WHY they made it a full circle target to remove positional requirements and it made for an interesting boss fight. I'd rather have that than the static design where a boss barely moves to account for positionals.

They weren't more static back in the day though and because back then tanks had to position bosses, this could mean bosses potentially ended up in different places pull by pull and it could change by the tank you had. Even with all this, noone complained about positionals. The challenge was to hit as many as possible and that was the thrill. The fact bosses position themselves, so you know exactly when they are going to move and what direction they will face, means you should be able to fully pre plan and pre position where to stand. This then means that the shift in fight design is what has potentially caused some people to dislike positionals as they have become uninteresting in that regard. Change the fight design back to where melee have to think on the fly, and you have more meaningful positionals.

I can't speak for the other casters as I don't mess with them in end game, but yes as a BLM I fully expect you to keep your GCD's rolling and not clip GCD's. There are enough tools/instant casts available for when you need to move. The only fight where I wanted to pull my hair out this tier was P7S with the running back and forth to bait circles, but its still 100% doable to always have something casting.

Not surprising with BLM being one of the more mobile casters, it would be interesting to see how a RDM or SMN sees things, considering they either have a more limited capability in getting insatcasts for long periods (RDM) or, depending on fight mechanics, they might not be able to avoid having to stop casting (SMN, yes, in theory, if movement happens on Slipstream and Ruby Rite in a minute, you may have to not be casting, I know, shocking. No idea how often that issue comes up though).

Now, where do you find fun in utilising the tools given to casters? I suspect it is the satisfaction of dancing around mechanics whilst keeping uptime. Planning the use of Swiftcast/Triplecast etc. to bypass the restrictions imposed on casters. It is that puzzle element you enjoy. But that is exactly what positionals were for melee, especially Monk. The challenge of dancing around mechanics whilst keeping uptime, not only on the boss, but also hitting the positional. The more and more I compare positionals to cast times, the more parallels I find.