Removal of Positionals

[ty_taurus]

I still do it too sometimes and kind of laugh when I catch myself doing it.

This isn't a solution, but a player can still choose to play as if the positionals were still there. I think it would be amazing if monk players collected together and outright refused to acknowledge the removal of positionals and upload videos of them playing this way in protest and then @ FFXIV with those videos. It'd just be something where I'd love to see how they'd respond.

[Equitable_Remedy]

I find positionals to be fun, so I hope that they stay - that's the beginning and end of the debate for me.

I like where NIN currently is: positionals on the two finishers of the 1-2-3 combo (and Trick Attack!). I'd also be fine with another marginal oGCD positional (such as Mug) and with more of the damage being put into the positional, but I'm good with the current state of affairs.

[boopadoop]

instead of removing positionals, i think making it so that bosses don't randomly turn around when attacking party members other than tanks or whoever has the aggro would be better. positionals can be pretty fun, esp for monks i think. it's just frustrating when bosses spin around every other second is why they suck. but if bosses ONLY turned to do telegraphed aoe attacks like a line or cone or something, instead of a targeted unavoidable attack on another player, i think that would be more fun because you'll have to break position to stay out of the aoe anyway ?

[Valence]

I'm still unable to do a Monk rotation without muscle memorying every positional.

Rear Bootshine + True Strike, Flank Dragon Kick + Twin Snakes. I can't help it. I miss it.

At least you enjoy it.

I have the exact same ptsd except I don't. :c

[GypsieJaeger]

Actually playing Reaper has its positional spots too and where I find it highly annoying is when the bosses spend over half the fights doing rear and flank damage keeping me and other melee dps out of the ideal dmg positions. I also play monk with the same issues. This is more on the newer boss fights but all the same.

[ElysiumDragon]

I'm in one of two minds, but neither involve the removal of positionals.

My first opinion is that the bad habit of bosses that change direction almost at random needs to be stamped out, as it completely disregards the tank's role in positioning the boss to make positionals easier for the melee players to hit them. Having more positionals wouldn't be a problem if the bosses actually stood still and didn't spin around randomly.

My second opinion is that positionals in high-end content limit the design space devs have for boss arenas, and that high-end content should either be designed with the explicit intention of positionals in mind (so no spinny teleporting nonsense), or should be omnipositional, so that the whole arena can be used for mechanics (See P2S as an example).

[Powercow]

Realistically positionals add nothing to the game. Sitting at the corner of the circle and moving 1 inch left or right is not skillful, its not fun and its completely pointless considering whenever there is a mechanic that disrupts the ability to do that we have true north to compensate it making the entire design pointless. If true north didn't exist you would have a point, but as it stands positionals are meaningless and add nothing to the combat which is why I really don't care if they stay or go. They don't add or take away any kind of difficulty, so if they stay then whatever. If they go, nothing changes other than the fact a spot on my hotbar opens up.

So during a combo, you have to hit a button to do additional damage that's in addition to oGCDs and your GCDs, that sometimes require you to know the fight in advance to know to pre-position in case the boss turns or has a mechanic where certain areas are inaccessible, where a skilled player can greed out extra damage if they're willing to be risky and/or knowledgeable.

And that somehow adds nothing to the gameplay? What DOES add gameplay then? Certainly not GCDs or oGCD attacks, certainly not cooldowns. Because those have either the same amount of requirements to use optimally or less. So what's even left at that point? How are positionals not the purest form of actual gameplay? (Meaningful feedback notwithstanding. Make whiffing a positional do less than half of its damage and add a pathetic sound effect and I guarantee people will look at them more favorably as a gameplay mechanic.)

And yeah, remove True North. It was a stupid skill to begin with and it should never have existed.

[Ransu]

So during a combo, you have to hit a button to do additional damage that's in addition to oGCDs and your GCDs, that sometimes require you to know the fight in advance to know to pre-position in case the boss turns or has a mechanic where certain areas are inaccessible, where a skilled player can greed out extra damage if they're willing to be risky and/or knowledgeable.

And that somehow adds nothing to the gameplay? What DOES add gameplay then? Certainly not GCDs or oGCD attacks, certainly not cooldowns. Because those have either the same amount of requirements to use optimally or less. So what's even left at that point? How are positionals not the purest form of actual gameplay? (Meaningful feedback notwithstanding. Make whiffing a positional do less than half of its damage and add a pathetic sound effect and I guarantee people will look at them more favorably as a gameplay mechanic.)

And yeah, remove True North. It was a stupid skill to begin with and it should never have existed.

Here's the problem. Remove true north and now you bring in another problem which is restriction on how the boss can move. There are some fights where a boss essentially goes outside of the arena and you cannot attack the rear or just the entire fact that a boss will randomly spin. This is why true north was added to begin with, so either you keep a boss static and have it basically never move, or you make the ring on the boss change depending on where it is at so that positionals are disabled when they go to an area that a flank/rear attack isn't possible.

So yes, positionals as they are now are beyond pointless, and making changes to make missing positionals more punishing would heavily limit boss fight designs. The better alternative is to remove positionals which allows the team for more creative boss fights. We're already seeing that anyways with a lot of boss fights being full circles and disabling the need for positionals.

I personally see zero positives to positionals. They do not create any form of good engagement.

[ZiraZ]

Here's the problem. Remove true north and now you bring in another problem which is restriction on how the boss can move. There are some fights where a boss essentially goes outside of the arena and you cannot attack the rear or just the entire fact that a boss will randomly spin. This is why true north was added to begin with, so either you keep a boss static and have it basically never move, or you make the ring on the boss change depending on where it is at so that positionals are disabled when they go to an area that a flank/rear attack isn't possible.

So yes, positionals as they are now are beyond pointless, and making changes to make missing positionals more punishing would heavily limit boss fight designs. The better alternative is to remove positionals which allows the team for more creative boss fights. We're already seeing that anyways with a lot of boss fights being full circles and disabling the need for positionals.

I personally see zero positives to positionals. They do not create any form of good engagement.

Current fights are the opposite of being creative so I guess that completely disproves the entire point.
STOP ASKING TO REMOVE THINGS THEY WONT GIVE BACK ANYTHING IN RETURN

[UkcsAlias]

I personally see zero positives to positionals. They do not create any form of good engagement.

Thats just you then... and the recommendation is to not play a melee dps then. There are multiple jobs for this very reason.

Positionals are one of the best features because they enable skill diffirences to be shown through numbers. More skill on a melee dps means more damage. Even if you cannot see the numbers, you can still notice a boss getting killed just that little bit faster (which on savage/ultimate means more enrage timer remaining).

You are asking for something on a similar level to removing headshots for a sniper in a shooter. A weapon type thats all about accuracy. The melee dps in this game is just like that, and therefor has those gimmicks.

The moment positionals are removed, you essentialy removed the entire need for the melee dps job to exist in its entirety. The ranged dps damage penalty at that point becomes irrelevant since a melee dps has the same uptime (otherwise you can remove ranged dps entirely). Positionals enable situations in which melee dpses shine, and situations in which they dont. But on average, they are just balanced.

Variety in a game is good. Otherwise just keep playing de_dust2... as then you know nothing will ever change.