Removal of Positionals

[Shurrikhan]

When the damage difference between hitting your positional and not hitting you positional was significant, then the mechanic of hitting a positional mattered. When you wouldn't get the maximum amount of resources or benefits from not hitting your positional, then hitting a positional mattered. There are various examples of this, but I'm not going to go into them. As it stands, they're just there at this point. The damage difference is minimal, and there is no loss of resources or benefits if you miss one. In essence, you're moving just to move. People get attached to these mechanics, when the mechanic itself is pointless in its current iteration.

For some reason I'm reminded of every other tank with caster DPS (target-centered, smaller-radius AoEs) in dungeons: "What? Group them up in front of me instead of spreading them. Dude, it doesn't matter. We can block and parry attacks from behind now. And ffs, why does are those two mobs still at twice the health of everything else? Do you even AoE, bro?"
Or, say, the tanks who insist on spinning mobs constantly because "Positionals are like nothing now anyways..."

Granted, that's more an example of unintended side-effects, but there are considerations attached to these things (in themselves and/or in playing around them) that we might not want removed. Take Bards who still Aetherial-taxi for their Black Mages despite Triple-Cast being a thing. You don't think you'll miss them... until you do.

More than that though... there's just an element of fun lost. Some of these jobs just outright feel better when they're busier, and frequent positionals (as per old Monk) are huge increases to that busyness.

[Kazimere]

I don't particularly find taking a step left or right for 20 more potency fun. That's just me though. Having said that. I remember when combos would be broken if you didn't hit your positional, just to name one example. There are many more examples. Those things attached to the positional made it better. Why? Because if you messed up, or if a mechanic forced you to not get things, you had to adjust on the fly. THAT was solid mechanics that made being a melee actually involved. Now, we're just trying to keep the positional requirements more for nostalgia it seems.

I don't know if they're going to do away with them at this point. If they do keep them though, it'd be nice if they actually mattered and would meaningfully impact things for hitting or not hitting them.

[UkcsAlias]

I don't particularly find taking a step left or right for 20 more potency fun.

Well, in this case a potency percentage increase shows a bit more context on how useful it is. But the problem is that value is rather difficult to obtain. But usualy the gap is higher on lower base potencies (40 added on 100), while still being the same to some strong abilities (40 added on 360 is the same bonus). Idealy you want to stack all values over a timespan (for example 10000 potency), and then have the (potential) bonus value next to (for example 1500). That way you get a decent average percentage value. And logicaly we can expect players to hit about 80% of those reliably.
(this is also how you get a valid value to decide the ranged tax as this becomes comparible).

For the most dedicated players its all about getting that extra 20% of reliability that was missing. And its what defines the skill. Skill is often about these minimal optimizations. Note that missed potency by mechanics is not relevant on the job (as regardless of skill, its guaranteed missed potency). That value is just to again balance the ranged tax.

I don't know if they're going to do away with them at this point. If they do keep them though, it'd be nice if they actually mattered and would meaningfully impact things for hitting or not hitting them.

I think they deliberately dont do that to at least keep them playable well enough. The more they add, the more the skillcurve becomes, which can be undesired as they then would also need to figure out similar curves for the ranged dps and mages. The ranged dps tax might then have to be made more extreme and even include mages, which would bring greater class unbalance. Its an undesired effect when they still havent made something that adds more to those roles capabilties of showing skill.

Personaly im glad the balance is done like that, it gives something to aim for to become better, while not instantly being a major hazard for beginners.

[Kazimere]

Well, in this case a potency percentage increase shows a bit more context on how useful it is. But the problem is that value is rather difficult to obtain. But usualy the gap is higher on lower base potencies (40 added on 100), while still being the same to some strong abilities (40 added on 360 is the same bonus). Idealy you want to stack all values over a timespan (for example 10000 potency), and then have the (potential) bonus value next to (for example 1500). That way you get a decent average percentage value. And logicaly we can expect players to hit about 80% of those reliably.
(this is also how you get a valid value to decide the ranged tax as this becomes comparible).

For the most dedicated players its all about getting that extra 20% of reliability that was missing. And its what defines the skill. Skill is often about these minimal optimizations. Note that missed potency by mechanics is not relevant on the job (as regardless of skill, its guaranteed missed potency). That value is just to again balance the ranged tax.

I think they deliberately dont do that to at least keep them playable well enough. The more they add, the more the skillcurve becomes, which can be undesired as they then would also need to figure out similar curves for the ranged dps and mages. The ranged dps tax might then have to be made more extreme and even include mages, which would bring greater class unbalance. Its an undesired effect when they still havent made something that adds more to those roles capabilties of showing skill.

Personaly im glad the balance is done like that, it gives something to aim for to become better, while not instantly being a major hazard for beginners.

We're going to have to agree to disagree there. I don't find it to be a skillful task to hit a positional, especially with true north. There also isn't really any incentive to do it, other than you just want to maximize. That's really the only reason I bother doing it, because it's definitely not necessary to beat the event or to keep my rotation going.

[Aco505]

Positionals add a layer of complexity to melee jobs. We could debate on how good or bad it is, but it's there.

They could be compared to slidecasting windows, even if their effects are different.

Despite what some people are claiming here, you do require to be skillful when hitting positionals in a variety of environments. The comments I'm reading tell me that some simply don't play melee jobs enough to notice this. Removing True North because it makes them inconsequential?

Please, go and do P5S or any ultimate and try to hit every positional as DRG, because as ZiraZ has said, the goal is to hit them all, not that they're hard to hit individually.

Now, I could be biased because DRG is the "positional job" with 50% of our GCDs being one so there could be an argument that the other melee jobs should be more positional heavy but at the same time, not all of them need to be similar.

As a DRG main, I say no to removing positionals and instead making them more accessible for my job (e. g. allow WT and FnC to be pressed in any order) since we keep having to do them at all times no matter the point in our rotation unlike other melees; and possibly give more to the other melee jobs if they so desire it.

But at the same time, even if it stayed like this, I'd be fine with it.

Finally, the claim that you're just stuck in one place and moving a bit to the left or right is funny to me. What do you think you will do when there's no positionals? You are definitely not going to be dancing around the arena when no mechanics are going on. Positionals at least keep you awake and give you extra layers of consideration while performing your rotation. And most importantly, they are fun. Greeding and figuring out positionals in a new encounter is always an extra optimization step.

[Payadopa]

Removing positionals would be another nail in the coffin for the game in terms of fun gameplay. I play melees because I enjoy using my brain in a way. I actually have to think on when to use True North effectively so I have it out of CD when I need it again. And in savage doing your positionals correctly absolutely matters. Take that away and we loose yet again another aspect that's different. We already don't have fun gear, elements, TP and MP management, aggro, job synergy and buffs that go beyond DPS up or damage down.

Why people advocate for more stuff being removed is a mystery to me. I don't want to play an MMO where I am this self-sufficient tank/healer/DPS hybrid with lots of deeps, a one button rotation that can raise and attack from afar without a care in the world.

But that's exactly what the game is turning into more and more because some people can't pick the correct job to play for them so they bicker till a job they don't like is as bland as the others. Unless it's BLM of course. lol

[Deo14]

Why people advocate for more stuff being removed is a mystery to me. I don't want to play an MMO where I am this self-sufficient tank/healer/DPS hybrid with lots of deeps, a one button rotation that can raise and attack from afar without a care in the world.

Common thing I've heard from these people is that if they remove it, they will give us something better. What that is I have no idea, if it's better fight design, then SE should rethink their philosophy, since they shouldn't limit themselves because of positionals, just like they don't limit themselves because of casting uptime. EX3 is prime example of fight not giving a fuck about casting uptime (fight sucks but not because of casting uptime) and EX4 is example of a fight not giving a fuck about your positionals, yet it's still great fight and chasing better positional% makes it even more fun for melee.

But of course, this is all assuming that if they remove positionals, they will actually either give us something else or work on better fight designs, and I doubt either will happen.

[Ransu]

What? P5S was stupid easy to hit all your positionals lmao.

Timing slide casts 100% takes more skill than doing a positional.

I've been a melee main since ARR starting with DRG and moving to SAM in SB. I didn't start playing BLM till this tier.

I don't need positionals to "keep me awake." I'm too busying doing callouts for the fight and maintaining my rotation for the two minute windows. Positionals are practically sub conscientious at this point.

[ZiraZ]

What? P5S was stupid easy to hit all your positionals lmao.

prove i t.