Endwalker story doubt: spoiler alert

[Tehmon]

I have a different read on Hythlodaeus. He might come off as an unassuming nice guy, but he is just as obsessed with fulfilling his personal goal, dying with his friends, as any other ancient we've met. I mean that's what it is, he wants to die and he wants his friends to die. Now in ancient terms that certainly does not sound as bad as it does to anyone else, but it does give an '' edge '' to him that I find fascinating to a certain degree.

What's also endlessly fascinating to me that it doesn't matter which incarnation of Hythlodaeus we meet, he is always calm, cool and colleceted, almost to an eerie degree. Not to mention he is always ready to help us no matter what. How come out of all the tortured souls in Mare Larentorum, Hythlodaeus is completely capable of having a sane conversation and not lament over his supposed torment? What makes him so special?

In general, I'd describe Hythlodaeus as the most level-headed ancient we meet, but taking into consideration his primary goal, and how in the end, he pretty much gets what he wants, I feel that there is more to Hythlodaeus than an unassuming nice guy who just wants to help. I feel like much of what he does is for his own gain, and he will do whatever it takes to further his own goals. Yoshi-P said that out of all the ancients, Hythlodaeus is the most irresponsible and reckless, which makes him scary, and perhaps that has something to do with how far he is willing to go for his goals.

[Lunaxia]

I would overall say that in those situations I wasn't defending Venat so much as I was defending 'the story as it was given to us'...

Thanks for the explanation. I'm of a fairly different mindset on more than a few points, but it's both interesting and helpful to see the reasoning behind the opposing view and how other players choose to interpret the story and why. I can certainly understand where you're coming from.

And yeah, while it's largley unrelated...

I see! Funnily enough, while I loved the concept of Amaurot in ShB, my take on Real Hyth is actually more or less the same. Found him incredibly appealing as a character in his original incarnation despite his minor role for the intrigue and ambiguity that surrounded him, as well as his possible potential as a foil to Emet, and was let down to find they'd decided to strip away everything that made him compelling in the first place and turn him into a conventionally attractive, unassuming fan service-style character. To this day I still feel a strange sort of dissonance when I look at him, like my brain can't quite accept that's the design they decided to go with, lol. It's sort of a blasphemy to admit though, even in more critical circles, so I'm always a little surprised to come across someone else who also feels differently.

I have a different read on Hythlodaeus.

You're entitled to your own view of him, but I think describing him as "wanting to die and wanting his friends to die" is a misread of what he's saying. I'd say it's more his wanting them to live a long and happy life together, so that they can return to the star one day feeling fulfilled and at peace alongside the ones they love - which is a natural given for the Ancients, they're not completely immortal, even if they're not far off - rather than anything dark or sinister.

[Denishia]

Ah yes, the tiny circle of people who also found Hythlodeaus a manufactured bland pretty boy friend and thus was repelled by him. That it’s more acceptable and wide-spread to admit bouncing off of how strongly the game pushes you onto Haurchefant and the Scions when Hythlodeaus is a shallower rushed version.

Back to the original topic, I thought it was painfully obvious that the escape plan was a backup plan and was created not really for itself but to give the necessary psychological need of a ‘backup option’ as to keep people from despair. An arduous task with the option to quit it makes it easier to stick with it and pour your best effort rather than having no choice but to do it. That any plan is better than floundering around with nothing and as long as people had the illusion of the safety net they could focus on creating and carrying out a real plan that would address the problem instead of papering it over and pretending it doesn’t exist (the end goal of the Zodiark plan). Kicking the can down the road isn’t a viable solution, which was the real narrative danger of if the story went with the Moon Escape Plan - then the SF story trope would be the survivors landing on the new planet and rebuilding and having convinced themselves that Meteion’s Song wouldn’t find them, they would forget the reason that they fled and just focus on building their new planet.

[Tehmon]

Thanks for the explanation. I'm of a fairly different mindset on more than a few points, but it's both interesting and helpful to see the reasoning behind the opposing view and how other players choose to interpret the story and why. I can certainly understand where you're coming from.



I see! Funnily enough, while I loved the concept of Amaurot in ShB, my take on Real Hyth is actually more or less the same. Found him incredibly appealing as a character in his original incarnation despite his minor role for the intrigue and ambiguity that surrounded him, as well as his possible potential as a foil to Emet, and was let down to find they'd decided to strip away everything that made him compelling in the first place and turn him into a conventionally attractive, unassuming fan service-style character. To this day I still feel a strange sort of dissonance when I look at him, like my brain can't quite accept that's the design they decided to go with, lol. It's sort of a blasphemy to admit though, even in more critical circles, so I'm always a little surprised to come across someone else who also feels differently.



You're entitled to your own view of him, but I think describing him as "wanting to die and wanting his friends to die" is a misread of what he's saying.I'd say it's more his wanting them to live a long and happy life together, so that they can return to the star one day feeling fulfilled and at peace alongside the ones they love - which is a natural given for the Ancients, they're not completely immortal, even if they're not far off - rather than anything dark or sinister.

I feel like his goal more than anyone's is to return to the star, rather than doing something for the good of all humanity and then proceeding with the happy joyous suicide. Plus when it comes to death, I think he more than anyone takes it quite lightly, or at least the writers make him the mouthpiece of DEATH IS AWESOME!

If what you say is true, I think his actions would reflect that a bit more.

[Lunaxia]

I feel like his goal more than anyone's...

It's not really, it's just that he talks about it. It's like a couple talking about wanting to grow old together. Returning to the star after having fulfilled one's purpose is a perceived natural part of an Ancient's life. His defining trait is his love for his friends, who make him happy, so in turn part of his purpose is to make them happy by helping them fulfil their purpose in life, so they can return together when that time comes, and never need be apart. He wasn't really given a chance to show that to any great degree, given that he was rather rudely interrupted by an all-consuming apocalypse relatively early on in their lifespan.

It's not so much he takes death lightly, it's just that it's a positive and voluntary act for the Ancients and not really the same as what happens to mortals, so they wouldn't share the same trepidation or hesitation to discuss it. It was kind of a crucial plot point...

[Iscah]

I have a different read on Hythlodaeus. He might come off as an unassuming nice guy, but he is just as obsessed with fulfilling his personal goal, dying with his friends, as any other ancient we've met. I mean that's what it is, he wants to die and he wants his friends to die.

As others have commented, that's really misreading the Ancients' outlook on life.

They still definitely expect to die one day, but they have more control over it, choosing to do so once they believe they have "fulfilled their purpose".

Hythlodaeus wants his friends to succeed in fulfilling their purpose because that is a good thing in itself. Death is (to them) a natural second step after achieving this, which is why he talks openly about that aspect of it as well, but it's not so much his goal as an inevitable follow-up.

Essentially, it's not a window into his personal outlook but his entire society's alien-to-us perception of life and death.

[Cleretic]

Ah yes, the tiny circle of people who also found Hythlodeaus a manufactured bland pretty boy friend and thus was repelled by him. That it’s more acceptable and wide-spread to admit bouncing off of how strongly the game pushes you onto Haurchefant and the Scions when Hythlodeaus is a shallower rushed version.

Actually I find people get, like... legitimately mad when I state my opinion on Haurchefant is that he's so forgettable that I did forget about him. He's just one of a deluge of completely generic friendly people we meet across 2.0 that I couldn't allocate enough brainspace to actually remember, let alone like. I'm not sure I'd call it 'bounced off' so much as 'missed entirely', it wasn't even rejecting his appeal so much as never even registering it. So he was on a major deficit for me when he actually became important, and I never reached the point of actually caring who this guy was.

I dislike Hyth more, though. Because Haurchefant starting as 'Generic Friendly Man' meant that I never had any expectations for him to be anything more; the bar was low, and he never fell below it. Hyth had the potential to be interesting and then just refused to be (especially if the developers think he's actually reckless, which... did not come though).

In fact I'm actually sort of curious: what sort of person did all of you picture Hyth as like in Shadowbringers? Because I know I didn't default to 'hot guy'; I actually pictured him as much older, and friendly but weirdly distant and inhuman. Like a really weird grandpa from another planet, basically Montichaigne from Sharlayan mixed with the Ea.

[Denishia]

Hythlodeaus was memorable as a character that existed to be a worldbuilding mouthpiece, as in I didn’t forget his existence but that was the extent that he registered as at all compelling. I didn’t see him to be especially close to Emet nor Azem - he would have been the Adventurer Guild Leader but not as close as a Scion. And as ShB did nothing to endear Amaurot to me - quite the opposite - I had no incentive to care about Hythlodeaus as a character or want to meet him. With apathy there’s no reason to create any expectations. Then the character in EW was annoying, in part because the game was working on this false assumption that Emet had even the slightest bit of positive charisma and appeal and that of course I would love this other prepackaged “charming” friend. Haurchefaunt’s death didn’t really hit emotionally until Edmont’s monologue, but at least he was interesting for Ishgardian lore and the cliched noble bastard tropes. Hythlodeaus’s death - meh, zilch. Which, eh, it can be very easy for me to tear up over characters - I was tearing up over Scott in FF II and that’s the definition of threadbare plot and you meet him and he dies in the first twenty minutes of that game.

The shipping bait of his character was also obvious in a way that made my eyes roll, but I know it’s the asexuality fueling my irritation with characters meant to be shipped with your WoL, hence the mild dislike at times towards Haurchefant, certain cutscenes with G’raha and Alisaie, and definitely everything with Emet and Hythlodeaus in Elpis. Also makes me irritated on behalf of any sapphics playing this game because those options outside of Y’shtola keep on being written off.

[SannaR]

Hmm... I'm trying to think of how I felt when I met ShB Hyth. I don't think I realized that the guy outside the capital building was/is Hyth when doing that part. I did however find it odd that there was a faceless Amaurot that tried to hide the fact they blurted out they knew me. Then one of them sits down next to us while we're waiting our turn and spills the tea just like Elpis Hythlodaeus wants to about the volcano incident. But chooses to tell us how Emet-Selch became Emet-Selch instead. Anyway here's a shade that by all means is acting weird and not calling us a child. Is confused as to why Emet-Selch hasn't confessed to us that we used to be friends. Not that Emet-Selch hadn't been trying to drop hints.

The guy cheers us on and throws a brick at us when he tells us Ardbert has the same soul color. I don't think I gave ShB or even part of Zodiark Hyth an age. Just that somehow a nice guy with a sense of humor was very chill, who even though ShB him knew he was made by Emet still came off with enough charm I guess? where I at least felt like there was enough free will there that you could ascribe his behavior and thoughts as his own.

Idk. It's hard to find the words to describe exactly how ShB Hyth feels. I guess it's like how Donald Glover makes you believe that the Lando you meet in A Solo Story is the same suave scoundrel you meet in Bespin during The Empire Strikes back. Or how synths, the geth and the androids from Detroit Become Human are meant to make you go "Are they really not malfunctioning and having gained sentience?" "Or is their programming so good that our brains are easily being tricked into thinking they're operating outside of their programming?" For me he only got oh frick he's hot; wait are all the ancients hot? When we got his and Emet's entrance to Elpis. Even before Elpis having read Through his eyes I had been wondering what kind of person is able to be seemingly close friends with Mr. grumpy and well a still kinda green Ahsoka type. Or 1st two seasons Ruby Rose

[Iscah]

Amaurotine Hythlodaeus does seem "older and wiser" than his real self in Elpis, but that isn't surprising really. It's not a perfect copy of the real Hyth but – if created accidentally as he speculates – some amalgamation of Emet's memories of Hyth, tinged with his own experiences and long years of weariness. Maybe it's more a picture of how he would have mellowed out in older age, and not how he is as we eventually meet him.

But yes, in those first ghostly appearances he has his own feel and character that the humanised version of him doesn't match. More of an old mentor type, I suppose? Still with a sense of humour, soft-spoken, "nice". Montichaigne is a good comparison as mentioned above.

I liked both versions of him, but I don't really like what they did with Elpis as a whole. They did a poor job at expressing a single narrative there, and the sidequests feel at odds with the main story's point.


(PS. I'm still waiting on a sidequest to go back to Amaurot and tell Hythlodaeus about our trip to Elpis and what happened to his real self and Emet in the end.)