Casual vs Hardcore

[Punainen]

Hardcore games are a dying breed because people who are "hardcore" gamers don't breed.

See what I did there?

[Lacavi]

I gotta be honest to the people that think there's no "Hardcore" market. I would say that FFXI fell under that description, and surely Eve Online does. Guess what? FFXI had a steady 500K players for YEARS, and that's a low estimate. Guess what? When Abyssea was released, that number quickly fell to 300K, was it because people felt there was casualization? Maybe, or it could've been old. I stopped playing FFXI because Abyssea ruined it for me, personally.

Eve online, one of the most hardcore MMOs on the market, enjoys quite a number of subscribers itself, last best estimate was 600,000 subscribers. Is it WoW? No, but it's more than enough to keep the content coming and the players happy, all while keeping the company in the black.

That said, I honestly feel casual players are fickle, they go to the next shiny thing after they get bored quite quickly, it's actually the hardCORE players that keep a MMO going.

[Chardrizard]

I gotta be honest to the people that think there's no "Hardcore" market. I would say that FFXI fell under that description, and surely Eve Online does. Guess what? FFXI had a steady 500K players for YEARS, and that's a low estimate. Guess what? When Abyssea was released, that number quickly fell to 300K, was it because people felt there was casualization? Maybe, or it could've been old. I stopped playing FFXI because Abyssea ruined it for me, personally.

Eve online, one of the most hardcore MMOs on the market, enjoys quite a number of subscribers itself, last best estimate was 600,000 subscribers. Is it WoW? No, but it's more than enough to keep the content coming and the players happy, all while keeping the company in the black.

That said, I honestly feel casual players are fickle, they go to the next shiny thing after they get bored quite quickly, it's actually the hardCORE players that keep a MMO going.

My babies, you can have it.

[Enfarious]

I gotta be honest to the people that think there's no "Hardcore" market. I would say that FFXI fell under that description, and surely Eve Online does. Guess what? FFXI had a steady 500K players for YEARS, and that's a low estimate. Guess what? When Abyssea was released, that number quickly fell to 300K, was it because people felt there was casualization? Maybe, or it could've been old. I stopped playing FFXI because Abyssea ruined it for me, personally.

Eve online, one of the most hardcore MMOs on the market, enjoys quite a number of subscribers itself, last best estimate was 600,000 subscribers. Is it WoW? No, but it's more than enough to keep the content coming and the players happy, all while keeping the company in the black.

That said, I honestly feel casual players are fickle, they go to the next shiny thing after they get bored quite quickly, it's actually the hardCORE players that keep a MMO going.

I agree with every word of this, but in XI and Eve and sooo many others that still have subscribers, EQ anyone, the hardcore aren't limited to just people that play 60+ hrs a week, if people stopped claiming the "hardcore" title cause they are couch potatoes and it went back to the people that really are the best and the ones that will put in the play time regardless of the number of real life hours spent this whole argument would go up in smoke.

Hardcore isn't just about # of hours logged in/[day|week|month|year] it's about time put in trying to be the best, hopefully w/o taking on the super elitist holier than thou BS attitude that so often comes with. Nothing more annoying than being told there's only one right way to do something by someone who "knows" they're right because they play more five minutes after doing it another way with them that also worked.

[Viritess]

I gotta be honest to the people that think there's no "Hardcore" market. I would say that FFXI fell under that description, and surely Eve Online does. Guess what? FFXI had a steady 500K players for YEARS, and that's a low estimate. Guess what? When Abyssea was released, that number quickly fell to 300K, was it because people felt there was casualization? Maybe, or it could've been old. I stopped playing FFXI because Abyssea ruined it for me, personally.

Eve online, one of the most hardcore MMOs on the market, enjoys quite a number of subscribers itself, last best estimate was 600,000 subscribers. Is it WoW? No, but it's more than enough to keep the content coming and the players happy, all while keeping the company in the black.

That said, I honestly feel casual players are fickle, they go to the next shiny thing after they get bored quite quickly, it's actually the hardCORE players that keep a MMO going.

And if you look at the surveys done by CCP for their very gamers you'll find the vast majority hardly ever step out of High security space. The "Hardcore" as you call it are in fact the minority populous living in No sec (no rules) space.

Many many more players stay in high sec space, running missions and manufacturing goods. And they help pay the bills too.

I'd disagree a bit with your final point. "Hardcore" gamers set the ceiling in an MMO. They push the content that requires skill and preperation. A certain MMO we all know doesn't have millions of subscribers for a long amount of time solely because the "casuals" left for somet5hing new, and the Hardcores stayed.

They stay solvent and active because there is room for both, and all things are possible OVER TIME Be it 40 hours/week or 5/week. We all know the more time you spend doing something the more practice you'll have doing it. This does not always equate Better. Nor does it equate "Hardcore" or "Casual".

Also i don't mean to single your post out, however Eve-Online is something i spent 6 years playing, as you define it, "Hardcore".

As far as the thread as a whole i've been playing MMOs too many years to not groan over this discussion every time it pops up.

I DO NOT agree with people who say "Casuals" have limited time because they have "A Life". Thats ignorant to say someone who does have more time then they do must not have one.

But i also find it disgusting to see those on the other side attempt to decide that X amount of hours means i can have things and you/they can not. If a goal takes effort, skill and time over time be happy that you have the extra hours to get stuff perhaps days, weeks, months or years sooner then others and quit crying that you can't set a line just below yourself so you can feel like a special snowflake.

You want to be the best? Fraps your awesomeness and the community may well grant you your "leetness". Grab a worlds first, server first or something akin to that.

TL;DR - Quit throwing crap at each other, you both end up looking like piles of crap. You want to be awesome/leet/etc Fraps it, post it and prove it. Punching your "in-game time clock" does not make you awesome.

[Rocl]

[Gramul]

¿Por qué en español?
Yo sólo soy familiarizados con ello Inglés.

[Rocl]

¿Por qué en español?
Yo sólo soy familiarizados con ello Inglés.

yo quiero taco bell, mon ami

[fusional]

why do people feel entitled to equal rewards for less effort and/or execution?

"i only get to play this game for an hour a week and if i can't have the same shit as the guy who plays 2-3 hours a day i quit"

seriously?

you're really throwing a tantrum about this?

are you 12?

I gotta be honest to the people that think there's no "Hardcore" market. I would say that FFXI fell under that description, and surely Eve Online does. Guess what? FFXI had a steady 500K players for YEARS, and that's a low estimate. Guess what? When Abyssea was released, that number quickly fell to 300K, was it because people felt there was casualization? Maybe, or it could've been old. I stopped playing FFXI because Abyssea ruined it for me, personally.

Eve online, one of the most hardcore MMOs on the market, enjoys quite a number of subscribers itself, last best estimate was 600,000 subscribers. Is it WoW? No, but it's more than enough to keep the content coming and the players happy, all while keeping the company in the black.

That said, I honestly feel casual players are fickle, they go to the next shiny thing after they get bored quite quickly, it's actually the hardCORE players that keep a MMO going.

nail, meet head.

[DarthTaru]

The thing to do for endgame is to do a lot of what XI did for endgame. XI didn't do everything through horrendous drop rates; it did it through multiple levels of challenge. Let's see a linkshell of casuals go after PW.
Spoiler alert: The RNG wouldn't be their problem. PW would.

The key to keeping everyone happy should simply be in having a wide range of challenges. Some challenging enough to be fun, some challenging enough to give hardcore players something to really sink their teeth into. If it's too difficult for some people, that's too damn bad. In XI there were mobs that were too difficult for the hardest of the hardcore. They didn't whine about it, nor should you.

What seperates casuals from hardcore shouldn't be time, it should be skill. We shouldn't even be using the terms "casual" and "hardcore;" we should be using the terms "good player" and "bad player" and "average player."
There were plenty of mobs in XI that only three or so linkshells on every server could kill. Not because of bots, but because if the rest claimed it they would get their faces stomped in.

But for these people, there was plenty of things they COULD do. It wasn't so much about time as it was about the skill of the players. It's a fair game model for everyone. It allows "casuals" to gradually get better and reach new challenges and it also allows "hardcore" players to do the same.

Content like Cutters Cry and Aurum Vale are grindfests. They're for hardcore players that can dedicate night after night to runs with their linkshells. Mobs like Cerberus and Vrtra weren't exclusive to hardcore players. A casual linkshell could just as easily go claim. It was just a measure of skill, as much of the game should be.