Casual vs Hardcore

[Viritess]

I gotta be honest to the people that think there's no "Hardcore" market. I would say that FFXI fell under that description, and surely Eve Online does. Guess what? FFXI had a steady 500K players for YEARS, and that's a low estimate. Guess what? When Abyssea was released, that number quickly fell to 300K, was it because people felt there was casualization? Maybe, or it could've been old. I stopped playing FFXI because Abyssea ruined it for me, personally.

Eve online, one of the most hardcore MMOs on the market, enjoys quite a number of subscribers itself, last best estimate was 600,000 subscribers. Is it WoW? No, but it's more than enough to keep the content coming and the players happy, all while keeping the company in the black.

That said, I honestly feel casual players are fickle, they go to the next shiny thing after they get bored quite quickly, it's actually the hardCORE players that keep a MMO going.

And if you look at the surveys done by CCP for their very gamers you'll find the vast majority hardly ever step out of High security space. The "Hardcore" as you call it are in fact the minority populous living in No sec (no rules) space.

Many many more players stay in high sec space, running missions and manufacturing goods. And they help pay the bills too.

I'd disagree a bit with your final point. "Hardcore" gamers set the ceiling in an MMO. They push the content that requires skill and preperation. A certain MMO we all know doesn't have millions of subscribers for a long amount of time solely because the "casuals" left for somet5hing new, and the Hardcores stayed.

They stay solvent and active because there is room for both, and all things are possible OVER TIME Be it 40 hours/week or 5/week. We all know the more time you spend doing something the more practice you'll have doing it. This does not always equate Better. Nor does it equate "Hardcore" or "Casual".

Also i don't mean to single your post out, however Eve-Online is something i spent 6 years playing, as you define it, "Hardcore".

As far as the thread as a whole i've been playing MMOs too many years to not groan over this discussion every time it pops up.

I DO NOT agree with people who say "Casuals" have limited time because they have "A Life". Thats ignorant to say someone who does have more time then they do must not have one.

But i also find it disgusting to see those on the other side attempt to decide that X amount of hours means i can have things and you/they can not. If a goal takes effort, skill and time over time be happy that you have the extra hours to get stuff perhaps days, weeks, months or years sooner then others and quit crying that you can't set a line just below yourself so you can feel like a special snowflake.

You want to be the best? Fraps your awesomeness and the community may well grant you your "leetness". Grab a worlds first, server first or something akin to that.

TL;DR - Quit throwing crap at each other, you both end up looking like piles of crap. You want to be awesome/leet/etc Fraps it, post it and prove it. Punching your "in-game time clock" does not make you awesome.

[TheFatHousecat]

Obv. what is hardcore/casual is objective. A typical depiction is that hardcore players are elitist jerks with no lives who ruin the game with aggressive competition, while casuals are people with jobs who play the game at their own pace and expect things to be handed to them. But that's sort of biased, isn't it? :L

I feel like the best description would be:

Hardcore = players who have the skills to understand the mechanics of and defeat high-level bosses before the majority of the player base. Like Rentahamster said, this can also sometimes mean that these players simply have more playtime than others. While this is somewhat true, I also feel that there are usually enough people per sever who can dedicate large enough amounts of playtime that you'd be able to differentiate between those who play a lot and get things done, and those who play a lot and don't. There are some stellar players who have full-time jobs and families, but are able to complete endgame content before the majority of the server because of these skills.

Being hardcore also means being quick on the uptake of new ideas and strategies, understanding your role within a battle, understanding your job well enough to min/max your character in stats/gear/etc, as well as having the ability to work well with your guild-mates and take constructive criticism where needed.

Casual = This can describe people who simply have so much on their plates, be it work/family/etc, that they're unable to play the game as much as others; putting them at a disadvantage when it comes to job level and gear sets.

'Casual' can also describe players who just aren't concerned with being the best DPS/Tank/Healer/etc. that they can be, and completing endgame content before everyone else. These people play the game at their own pace, and don't feel the need to necessarily excel at playing the game as long as they're having fun.

Then again, a 'casual' can also mean that the player is simply not skilled or fast enough to compete with other, hardcore players. They might not be able to pick up on new strategies as quickly, or might not understand new stat/gear builds in order to min/max their characters. Some of these players might just not have enough experience in gaming or MMOs, and with some guidance can improve, while others are, unfortunately, a lost cause.

Obviously we need all types on content, which caters to hardcore and casual players, and all those in-between. But I would agree that, while casuals may have a larger population on their side, the hardcores are the players that keep a game afloat. They're the players who will grind content for months to get their item, who are so in love with the game that they'll stay through great patches and bad ones, and who are sincerely concerned with game development.

You need hardcore players, and you need to keep them happy, just as you need your casuals and content to keep them around.

[Enfarious]

Did I disagree with you somewhere in my post? :3 In FFXI SquareEnix outsourced the problem by giving HNM-Linkshells only a certain amount of items which were usually given out based on attendance, that way everyone got what he deserved and all were happy. And that is something i'd love to see in 2.0

Perhaps I just misunderstood your meaning, my bad.

[Kaizlu]

Do you really and honestly think that a casual gamer can breeze through all of that based solely on luck? Because they'd have to be pretty damn lucky.

No, of course not.

Perhaps, casual isn't the correct word for the relic quest. I think "accessible" is the word, in a way that you can only speed up the process by 1) grinding content or 2) getting lucky. In that way, players who have a wife, kids, lover, high school crush, two business and also go to school can still have the chance at progressing even if they do the content a few hours per week.

Likewise, by the exact same token, hardcore Johnny could get lucky and get stuff in a day, while casual Jimmy could be unlucky and get absolutely nothing. That argument doesn't really hold up well. It's lucky vs unlucky which is an entirely different issue in its own right.

Well but chances are that more hardcore johnny's will have relics then Casual Jimmys
This relic weapons feel more like AF weapons anyways... They shouldnt be that hard to get.

You both are correct. Luck/RNG is the whole point, but think beyond that - why do we have it? That's what I was saying in my other post: perhaps it's not only to prolong content, but to make it accessible enough to a) be done a lot of times (short re-entry timers, content not lasting that much) and b) that once you clear the content it doesn't matter if you play 3 hours a week or 3 hours a day - you can still make some progress.

[SwordCoheir]

But, the whole relic quest smells of "casual".

Casual Jimmy can get lucky and get stuff in a day, while hardcore Johnny couldn't get anything while spamming content in a week.

Little late in my reply, but yeah there isn't a difference at the moment because gear is based more on chance than time and effort employed into obtaining said gear. The relics are a good start in the right direction because even though it can be done by more casual players, it does show time and effort that's put into it. For the other instances that rewards are unfairly distributed like with primal drops and hamlet seals, Yoshi said that he planned to implement token based systems to allow players to basically progress regardless of their success at obtaining rewards.

[SmilingJack]

Little late but yeah. .

It is funny when People equate Hardcore/Casual to Skill level. It is also interesting that it is often tagged onto the number of hours you play at any given time.

I have always seen it as the persons attitude, in combination with their commitment level, which yes does correlate often with how often and how much you play but it falls under "correlation does not imply causation". Meaning just because you are Hardcore does not mean you spend a hundred hours a week in the game. It also means that just because you spend a hundred hours a week in game, it does not mean you are Hardcore.

So with the above, what is Attitude and commitment?
To make it simple it can be described as such.

A Hardcore player would have the following.
A very strong attitude that is geared toward success (or failure if that is your goal, which would end up as a success anyway) in everything that they decide to do. It does not suggest THEY DO EVERYTHING in game. It means whatever it is they DO, whether it be one portion of content or ALL of it, they go and apply this attitude to it. Failure would be intolerable but it also does not mean you win all the time or lose all the time.

This is often accompanied by extreme levels of stubbornness to the point where other stubborn people would just say, "dude, it's only a game". This is where you (if you where the hardcore) would say, "NO U!" or "No, it is unacceptable to quit". You would continue to go until it is no longer possible to continue due to forces out of your control (example, you not being the raid/party lead, others quitting around you, you Die in your chair, etc).

These are two of the main attitudes but are NOTHING and/or change based on a persons commitment level. You can have a strong drive for success and be stubborn but if you have low commitment you will give up much sooner then others and often not succeed as much and as often as you COULD. That is because a Drive towards accomplishment/success and stubbornness can be influenced by the mood of the moment. It is commitment that sees you through the bad moments and makes the good ones that much more enjoyable.

That is what should constitute a Hardcore Player and below that would fall Casual and Avid players. They fall into those categories because they do not want or have the commitment to be THAT driven or Stubborn. you also can't blame them for that. I used to be Hardcore of the Hardcore. With the drive, the stubbornness the commitment as well as putting IN MASSIVE amount of time into FF11. I look back and I can only be sadden by it or laugh at myself.

There should never have been a debate between the two(3) in the first place. Especially after many MMOs had become established. Hardcore is not how much you time you have spent or gotten done or how much you can do or how far you can go. It is the stuff in the background that influences what everyone else will see.

So then at this point what I a trying to say is. Hardcore, Avid, Casual is only the degree of your drive and commitment. The place you end up at (within those 3 categories) is the place where you get your bad, good, pro, Elite label because they are titles purely designed to rate and tag skill level. Also before anyone says so. No the titles do not dictate or are directly associated with the type of person you are or how driven you are or committed. You can and have bad players who are very committed and stubborn and have Elite players who are lazy as hell and always have been and quit at the drop of a hat.

Avid players end up at it being their main hobby but not willing to put in the extreme emotion or commitment or time into the game because IT IS just a game. Casuals end up at playing the game purely for fun able to be committed and want success but don't wish to or don't have the means to go and invest more emotion or yes TIME because they value other things beyond the game. I have seen many casuals who would school the hell out of individuals who hide behind Hardcore/Elite tag. Right after the lesson is over they turn off the game, the computer and go and hang out with there real life friends/family.

Time does not = skill. Time CAN = improvement in skill, but overall it is all up to the players own ability to grow. You CAN be born ELITE. you can improve and obtain ELITE status over time but it does not MEAN it will happen, no matter how badly or closely you follow any definition of Hardcore.

I apologize for the Long post.

PS: In response to the individual who was talking about games being kept alive by the Hardcore. Sure it does, if by alive you mean the games kicking and screaming. Waiting for the sweet relief of Death. Especially when Hardcore supposedly means = lots of time played and skill level. 500k FF11 players across what? 20ish servers or so and like 20-25k players per server who all mainly comprised themselves of Hardcore? I don't remember any HNM camp with 1-5k players waiting for spawn or for that matter more then 200-400 players at any given place for anything that would have been considered important. So the loss of 200k+ players during abyssea would not have had a lot to do with just over casualization. You say a lot of casual players are fickle and easily jump away. I say those people have nothing to do with Casual players.

I leave you with this. How many Casuals and Hardcore players jumped ship when SWTOR came out or dropped in attendance because of SC2 or Diablo3? Guess what? A LOT of players from all ends of the spectrum did. That's how many. I guess they where all casuals? Also for the Elitist. After all those years you/we spent in FF11 or all other games. All the quest and titles and gear. All of the giant and vast HNMs we had slain. All of the dungeons and instances and Raids and Mog houses we conquered. What did we leave with after we quit because of things being made more casual? . . .Oh, that's right. Nothing. Casuals have always kept the game alive, "hardcores" kept only the end game going. It is now the age of casuals from a monetary standpoint. A Gaming company will never come out with something in a MMO that will make everyone happy. One person will always be pissed. DEAL WITH IT.

LONG LIVE THE CASUALS and because of them. We will get more content and often some hard and fun stuff to do.

[fusional]

I leave you with this. How many Casuals and Hardcore players jumped ship when SWTOR came out

a lot of casuals. far more casuals than hardcores. both because there are far more casual players than hardcores in general, and because swtor is a casual player's paradise.

and you know what's funny about that?

when you design a game from the ground up to cater only/primarily to casuals, not only do you immediately lose the attention of the hardcores- but you don't keep the attention of the casuals, either.

you have to have content for all types, and you can't neuter content designed for hardcores just to appease the casuals, as it gives the hardcores nothing for themselves while casuals get everything.

this is something blizzard balanced correctly for years with WoW, and something that is progressively breaking down a little more with each expansion. they're losing hundreds of thousands of subs a year, and while part of that is just natural as the game ages- i can ASSURE you it isn't the only reason, as a game as wildly successful as WoW still brings a lot of new blood (mostly casual) all the time. so which demographic is taking a hit when the pool of casuals is constantly renewing for the most part?

yeah. ok then.

so the tl;dr moral of the story here is that i don't recall seeing any hardcore players in this game saying ALL content in this game should cater to hardcores. it's always been simply that we want content of our own that isn't watered down to please the lowest common denominator of the game's myriad of demographics.

however, you see PLENTY of examples (even within this ONE SINGLE THREAD) of casual players crying for the direct inverse- that ALL content should cater to casuals.

and that is absolutely idiotic.

as a hardcore, i know my place. i don't expect every single quest in the game to test me to the absolute limits of my playing skill. i don't expect every single craft to require millions of gil in materials and some ridiculously long process to complete. i don't expect every mob to take 40 minutes or more to kill. but i want some of that, sometimes, just to know it's there when i want that test.

however, i see far too many casuals who don't seem to know their place, and the unfounded sense of entitlement gets old. quickly.

it's not my fault you chose to get married, start a family, work 60 hours a week. all that stuff is your prerogative, and you still have plenty of content you can work on in spite of it.

but your choices have nothing to do with me or players like me.

maybe ask for more of your own content, rather than asking for all of my content to cater to you as well. dig?

[Baudle]

Thank you all for participating in this conversation. As it has, however, become unproductive and volatile, we are going to be closing the thread now.

Again, thank you. And have a good day.