Length MSQ from all the expansions - it is getting insane

[CStrife912]

Don't you know Velkallor, if you don't parrot negativity towards the game = copium.

Stormpeaks, Shinkuno and Aveyond are the biggest trio I have seen lately to be negative. Sometimes they offer something meaningful but its like the youtube situation...you have to skim through 98% of rubbish to get to the 2% good stuff. Im all for debate but when it no longer is a case of back and forth and just insulting or borderline insulting then whats the point. Also challenging someone to have the words cringe, copium, coping or hopium used makes me die a little inside...what is everyone like 18 or something...

[Shinkuno]

Aren't you just going to parrot cOpIuM which you done multiple times already?

No, im not you who can only repeat "BuT WhEre PrOoF"

[Sotaris]

No, im not you who can only repeat "BuT WhEre PrOoF"

What do you mean? Cause I said steam charts isn't the whole picture? Interesting.

[Rolder50]

Ill ask again: WHAT is it you are trying to prove here? Literally...WHERE are you going with this?

You are throwing all these figures around..but are yet to tell us WHY this is so important...what is it you are trying to show here?

I think the summary of everything I've read so far is...

Endwalker is a step down from other expansions (relic, post-msq story, job design, etc), and this can be seen in steam charts. Obviously steam charts isn't going to show the whole population, but a trend downwards in steam can be extrapolated to a downward trend in all platforms. Since there's no functional difference between steam players and other players.

Furthermore, this isn't helped by the fact that the enormous length of the MSQ makes it hard to get new players in. So a downwards trend + hard to get new players in = game isn't looking so good.

Lastly, this thread was started specifically as a discussion on how to prove the MSQ length point, with ideas such as a jumping in point in a later expansion, or similar ideas.

[R041]

¨

That's what I said? You can't as a new player jump into the latest expansion immediately, you have to go through previous expansions (BFA and Shadowlands now).

I never said anything about speed, my point again, was to explain FF isn't alone in gating new players from the latest expansion.

There's no strict order. You just need to be a minimum level before you get 'Current Expac'.

This is what I wish XIV would do. If they actually had the foresight to accomplish it instead of snowball itself into.. Whatever it is today. lol

[CStrife912]

There's no strict order. You just need to be a minimum level before you get 'Current Expac'.

This is what I wish XIV would do. If they actually had the foresight to accomplish it instead of snowball itself into.. Whatever it is today. lol

I mean I would be ok if they did like a 20 minute clip that plays at the beginning (is skippable for people who want to play etc) that goes through the what happened the expansion prior at least. You could combine that with the 'Unending codex' to bring players up to speed I feel.

[R041]

I mean I would be ok if they did like a 20 minute clip that plays at the beginning (is skippable for people who want to play etc) that goes through the what happened the expansion prior at least. You could combine that with the 'Unending codex' to bring players up to speed I feel.

Nothing will really work with the current setup they have, they had their opportunity in Stormblood but decided it was better to continue the snowball. They even had an example of bad practices by looking at WoW, and continued to just keep copying bad practices. Meanwhile WoW actually evolved past the linear 'Themepark' disadvantages. It's practically more of a Sandbox than most MMOs these days.

It's funny because in ARR-HW, they actually tried to be different, and slowly fell into the trap of conformity and homogenization.

This all tracks with some studies comparing NA vs JP development practices, where JP businesses prefer standardization and long term commitments over moving to match trends and experimenting. Is what it is I guess, just kinda thought Yoshi was gonna be better, but SE pushed them into the same trap.

Blizzard as a business is running with 'Live-Service' these days, and it shows. They're quick to fail and quick to react. The quicker you are to fail and react, the quicker you are to succeed and find what works.
SE is failing to really understand what 'Live-Service' means in today's world, so any failure they have they never react to - They just let it fester and hold everything hostage on a 2 year cycles. They might still succeed, and if it works for them then whatever.

[CStrife912]

Nothing will really work with the current setup they have, they had their opportunity in Stormblood but decided it was better to continue the snowball. They even had an example of bad practices by looking at WoW, and continued to just keep copying bad practices. Meanwhile WoW actually evolved past the linear 'Themepark' disadvantages. It's practically more of a Sandbox than most MMOs these days.

It's funny because in ARR-HW, they actually tried to be different, and slowly fell into the trap of conformity and homogenization.

This all tracks with some studies comparing NA vs JP development practices, where JP businesses prefer standardization and long term commitments over moving to match trends and experimenting. Is what it is I guess, just kinda thought Yoshi was gonna be better, but SE pushed them into the same trap.

Blizzard as a business is running with 'Live-Service' these days, and it shows. They're quick to fail and quick to react. The quicker you are to fail and react, the quicker you are to succeed and find what works.
SE is failing to really understand what 'Live-Service' means in today's world, so any failure they have they never react to - They just let it fester and hold everything hostage on a 2 year cycles. They might still succeed, and if it works for them then whatever.

I wonder if a lot of those live service adapting techniques wont apply to 14 due to their content pool of resources being allocated long in advance and not having the team size that blizzard has to be able to adapt to those reactionary approaches. I do agree they definitely are reactionary as devs but then a lot of that is they are lucky their playerbase took that much of a beating till it finally clicked that maybe their direction isnt correct. The thing is from HW-EW they have consistent growth...playerbase has increased expansion to expansion...its easy to say they fell into comfort and their loop....but the players haven't bitten back enough to change it and to be honest EW is the only time some cracks have formed and whether 7.0 reacts to that is unknown at this minute. If it doesn't change and say the playerbase keeps steady or growing then what does that tell them honestly? I know player numbers are lower in this lul but a lot come back for 6.4 onwards for the long term into 7.0 plus the hype of fanfests will entice people to come back etc so il be curious how the next year goes.

[R041]

I wonder if a lot of those live service adapting techniques wont apply to 14 due to their content pool of resources being allocated long in advance and not having the team size that blizzard has to be able to adapt to those reactionary approaches. I do agree they definitely are reactionary as devs but then a lot of that is they are lucky their playerbase took that much of a beating till it finally clicked that maybe their direction isnt correct. The thing is from HW-EW they have consistent growth...playerbase has increased expansion to expansion...its easy to say they fell into comfort and their loop....but the players haven't bitten back enough to change it and to be honest EW is the only time some cracks have formed and whether 7.0 reacts to that is unknown at this minute. If it doesn't change and say the playerbase keeps steady or growing then what does that tell them honestly? I know player numbers are lower in this lul but a lot come back for 6.4 onwards for the long term into 7.0 plus the hype of fanfests will entice people to come back etc so il be curious how the next year goes.

Yeah, I mean XIV could obviously do some things correctly. I think playbase will stay steady for a bit just because of natural online game progression, and not necessarily because XIV is getting better. People are concerned that their reaction time to anything is just way too slow, especially this year when we're getting a lot of 'Live-Service' M/MO games. So imagine all of these other games coming out that actually offer a living, breathing experience and somehow managing to keep it fresh every week, or month.

It kinda feels like XIV is only a few bad decisions away from losing players and losing momentum. They're almost too safe. Not very exciting. It's like putting your stocks in Microsoft. Slow and steady, but not actually fun. So when that dips you know it'll take a very long time to get back up to pace.

I'd rather have a game that pisses me off half the time but fixes them on a monthly basis, than a game that pisses me off and takes 2 years to MAYBE resolve itself. You know? lol

I also kinda find it sad that even while 6.0 was releasing, we were saying "Yeah, but 7.0 will fix all these problems just wait" .. Most people aren't going to wait? Things need to change now. It's like all the changes they're doing over the past few years are just trying to scrape the bottom of the Single Player barrel, like they already gave up on the Live-Service race.

It's also pretty strange how XIV is still making dungeons and zones the way they are - For a business that's all about saving money, they really clutch the design philosophy revolving around throwing it away. Like what's their goal? How does Yoshi advocate spending money on them? "Yeah, so.. We have these zones and we're spending X amount of money on them." .. "Oh, what do players do in them? Uuhh.. Marketing and zone music!"

[CStrife912]

Yeah, I mean XIV could obviously do some things correctly. I think playbase will stay steady for a bit just because of natural online game progression, and not necessarily because XIV is getting better. People are concerned that their reaction time to anything is just way too slow, especially this year when we're getting a lot of 'Live-Service' M/MO games. So imagine all of these other games coming out that actually offer a living, breathing experience and somehow managing to keep it fresh every week, or month.!"

I mean I agree with what you say about other live service games coming out that could adapt to change much quicker. I don't feel like I can form an opinion on direction or if they are doing something too safe till the release of 7.0 It is easy to say variation of content Endwalker has approached things differently whether that is successfully is a matter of opinion (For me its brought good content types but it needs to invest in the long term viability of them)

If 7.0 and the 7.X series sticks the same then I agree there will be a decline or loss of players due to that staleness. I think it is impossible for them to course correct anything right this minute especially with their resources dedicated to say the visual update or duty support. We have spoken about them letting players start at an expansion but I think duty support could be a stepping stone to allow that. If we let people start from current, those that choose not to may struggle with queue times down the line so duty support allowing players to naturally progress through the game from the beginning will be a good thing for instance.

Like I said above I call certain users negative nancies and I know you yourself can sometimes come across that way but I at least know yours comes from a place of passion and concern and offer good rebuttal and not belittling haha. I am going to keep an eye on the market for the MMOs this year because Blue Protocol looks like a nice filler patch lul MMO to play (If its not infested with p2w)