Faith, Dynamis, Aether, Summoning

[SannaR]

I mentioned you cause you make lore videos, but unlike various others who do the same thing the videos you make don't drip with barely disguised disdain for anything concerning Dynamis. They don't even want to discuss anything dealing with it. Coming off as vehemently loathing it to the point of it becoming slightly spiteful all due to it being a thing named in at the 11th hour. Despite it probably being in the game for years. Just that the devs probably did the wise thing for once and didn't want to give such an abstract concept and energy source a name until then.

I feel part of the reason why people keep on asking or insisting something has to be dynamis or have a part be shaped by it is due to all of the things we've seen that could be boosted by an extreme show of emotions.

[Cleretic]

I mentioned you cause you make lore videos, but unlike various others who do the same thing the videos you make don't drip with barely disguised disdain for anything concerning Dynamis. They don't even want to discuss anything dealing with it. Coming off as vehemently loathing it to the point of it becoming slightly spiteful all due to it being a thing named in at the 11th hour. Despite it probably being in the game for years. Just that the devs probably did the wise thing for once and didn't want to give such an abstract concept and energy source a name until then.

I feel part of the reason why people keep on asking or insisting something has to be dynamis or have a part be shaped by it is due to all of the things we've seen that could be boosted by an extreme show of emotions.

I think the struggle with dynamis for a lot of lore-talkers is that we really like dealing in concrete Facts And Evidence, and dynamis... sorta by nature doesn't do that. Even in-universe it's intended to be a reference to dark matter and energy; 'we know it's there and that's about it'. In some ways it's almost emblematic of why lore-talking around this game can often feel kinda fruitless; ever since Heavensward it's been more character-focused storytelling rather than events or facts, so talking about those events and facts feels like it's missing the point... and then dynamis comes in with the literal purpose of 'doing whatever feels right even if it doesn't make a lot of sense at the time'. I don't blame people who get invested in the worldbuilding for not liking dynamis, because its main purpose is to enforce dramatic logic over actual logic, and then people like to apply that all over the place despite it only really taking that role in a small handful of places/times.

That means things like the 'primals are dynamis' and 'LBs are dynamis' theories get much more empassioned rebuttals than if someone was just... y'know, normally wrong. Because it's an active rejection of the facts that we do have, which some of us have really put effort into learning and being able to cite, in favor of nothing more than 'this feels better'.

[MikkoAkure]

Yeah, one of the issues with dynamis is that even on our sundered world, dynamis is a weak force.

Limit Breaks on the Source already have explanations from the lore book directly attributing them to aether. We use dynamis against Endsinger while in open space surrounded by concentrated dynamis.

One of the pitfalls with dynamis is that it was introduced very late in order to explain something that only happens in Endwalker. To me at least, there isn't much foreshadowing for dynamis before 6.0 and it feels like it was introduced to solve a problem they just created. It would've been the least they could have done to have something of an introduction to it in 5.4 and 5.5.

I personally don't hate it nor am I spiteful at it, but at least to me it's pretty obvious that it was invented long after most of the lore was already created and it was written in such a way that makes it difficult to reconcile it with past magical phenomena that have already been explained in detail.

Where dynamis has potential in the story is not in gunking up explanations of stuff we already "know" about, but in the future of the story. The dynamis genie is out of the bottle and now we are in a world that no longer has Zodiark's aetheric bubble or a Mothercrystal. There's potential for dynamis to affect new stories and new magic. It wouldn't surprise me if our level 100 abilities are explained with dynamis. That would be a nice way to cap off our classes before the inevitable level crunch.

[Denishia]

That subset of lore-driven interest that wants concrete answers to origins is why I think Elpis and the Ancients as the frankly too-on-the-nose Game Dev and Resource Artists expies are really popular but conversely why I don't like that aspect of them: now for so many of the in-universe animals, primals, creations, and even locale inspirations we have not only a direct answer but often the name or at least NPC figure to point to and say 'so-and-so made it.' XIV's world is much smaller and more artificial.

Dynamis as this observable but barely understood- and with study still defying a solid theory of how it works- phenomenon that doesn't play nice with XIV's 'everything is aether and we understand how aether works' turned the fundamental world-building structure into something far more realistic and palpable, or maybe that's just my entry level physics knowledge with what we know we don't know about how atoms really work. Delightfully refreshing to have highly-intelligent and well-read scientists and scholars point to something in-universe and go, "no idea how it really works." Counterintuitively, (hilariously) dynamis as a concept is trying to ...I guess the easiest way to say is Wastonion something Dolist. Then again, I do love Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time for creating ta'avern as the literal in-universe plot reason for Main Character Syndrome.

[SannaR]

Yeah, one of the issues with dynamis is that even on our sundered world, dynamis is a weak force.

Limit Breaks on the Source already have explanations from the lore book directly attributing them to aether. We use dynamis against Endsinger while in open space surrounded by concentrated dynamis.

One of the pitfalls with dynamis is that it was introduced very late in order to explain something that only happens in Endwalker. To me at least, there isn't much foreshadowing for dynamis before 6.0 and it feels like it was introduced to solve a problem they just created. It would've been the least they could have done to have something of an introduction to it in 5.4 and 5.5.

I personally don't hate it nor am I spiteful at it, but at least to me it's pretty obvious that it was invented long after most of the lore was already created and it was written in such a way that makes it difficult to reconcile it with past magical phenomena that have already been explained in detail.

Where dynamis has potential in the story is not in gunking up explanations of stuff we already "know" about, but in the future of the story. The dynamis genie is out of the bottle and now we are in a world that no longer has Zodiark's aetheric bubble or a Mothercrystal. There's potential for dynamis to affect new stories and new magic. It wouldn't surprise me if our level 100 abilities are explained with dynamis. That would be a nice way to cap off our classes before the inevitable level crunch.

I disagree in that it hadn't been introduced. After we learned of it I have always felt that is what we have subconsciously tapped into when we've needed a boost. Even if it's a retroactively thing that's been hinted at via things like Omega's testing. Where they observe us tapping into a power any time it looks as though we're on the ropes. To the point where they go and try to kill us in order to watch us need to tap into said power. Only to have Midgardsormr use up the last of his strength and free us before chastising Omega for trying that method and going for his nap. There's been a few other times when our enemy has expressed surprise at our ability to surpass what our sundered butt should be capable of doing. And yeah at the time all of these instances came about the devs probably didn't mean for them to hint at dynamis. Yet there's enough to be more than a coincidence.

[SannaR]

I think the struggle with dynamis for a lot of lore-talkers is that we really like dealing in concrete Facts And Evidence, and dynamis... sorta by nature doesn't do that. Even in-universe it's intended to be a reference to dark matter and energy; 'we know it's there and that's about it'. In some ways it's almost emblematic of why lore-talking around this game can often feel kinda fruitless; ever since Heavensward it's been more character-focused storytelling rather than events or facts, so talking about those events and facts feels like it's missing the point... and then dynamis comes in with the literal purpose of 'doing whatever feels right even if it doesn't make a lot of sense at the time'. I don't blame people who get invested in the worldbuilding for not liking dynamis, because its main purpose is to enforce dramatic logic over actual logic, and then people like to apply that all over the place despite it only really taking that role in a small handful of places/times.

That means things like the 'primals are dynamis' and 'LBs are dynamis' theories get much more empassioned rebuttals than if someone was just... y'know, normally wrong. Because it's an active rejection of the facts that we do have, which some of us have really put effort into learning and being able to cite, in favor of nothing more than 'this feels better'.

I understand how it's easier and to refute some wild theory if you're dealing with cold hard fact vs when you're trying to debate about something that isn't rooted in said fact as much. I feel there's probably some more questionable summonings then what's already been brought up. Enkidoh for example is one that doesn't make much sense from a strict aether only idea. Some of Ysayle's transformations into Shiva and even Tsukiyomi. My problems is there isn't a lot of faith/prayer/hope or I guess in Yotsuyu's instance anger(?) to help complete said summoning. In some instances there's even not a whole lot of aether either. Or at least not a lot of crystals. Then again how do you try and quantify the emotional part of the equation?

[RyuDragnier]

Best I can think of to explain that Sanna, is that the summoning requirement is the equivalent a "glass" that needs filling. You can fill it with any combination of Aether or Dynamis, as long as the total amount completely fills the glass. But that's me taking a shot in the dark.

[MikkoAkure]

I understand how it's easier and to refute some wild theory if you're dealing with cold hard fact vs when you're trying to debate about something that isn't rooted in said fact as much. I feel there's probably some more questionable summonings then what's already been brought up. Enkidoh for example is one that doesn't make much sense from a strict aether only idea. Some of Ysayle's transformations into Shiva and even Tsukiyomi. My problems is there isn't a lot of faith/prayer/hope or I guess in Yotsuyu's instance anger(?) to help complete said summoning. In some instances there's even not a whole lot of aether either. Or at least not a lot of crystals. Then again how do you try and quantity the emotional part of the equation?

Enkidu was summoned when Gilgamesh was thinking about his friend while surrounded by crystals. In Yotsuyu's case, she was also surrounded by crystals, while invoking the power of the moon and holding a relic specific to Tsukuyomi as a deity. Neither instance contradicts what we already knew about summoning and both involve focusing on a specific image in the presence of great amounts of aether. Ysayle even mentions requiring aether to transform and steals some from the Gnath's cache.

The problem I have with summoning having a dynamis component is that we already know it's related to Ancient creation magic and they did not use dynamis at all. Zodiark and Hydaelyn are said to be the oldest and most powerful primals and both are just extremely large-scale summonings performed by beings that normally can't handle dynamis.

It's also difficult to reconcile dynamis with summonings when it's already been established that primals are pure aether that require more aether and that overwhelming aether cannot interact with dynamis. Then there's the Gnath, who don't have emotions at all, but are still capable of summoning Ravana.

[Eisi]

The problem I have with summoning having a dynamis component is that we already know it's related to Ancient creation magic and they did not use dynamis at all.

Or did they?

[Cleretic]

Enkidoh for example is one that doesn't make much sense from a strict aether only idea. Some of Ysayle's transformations into Shiva and even Tsukiyomi. My problems is there isn't a lot of faith/prayer/hope or I guess in Yotsuyu's instance anger(?) to help complete said summoning.

Actually I can explain those pretty immediately and easily; it is still faith shaping the summoning, it's just a different sort of faith.

-Enkidu was summoned accidentally by Gilgamesh in a joke questline, so we're already in a weird loose situation even if Hilidbrand does play hilariously lore-accurately. But Gilgamesh did have faith in Enkidu, as a friend. He genuinely believes that Enkidu is out there somewhere and that they'll reunite someday. Enkidu was also summoned with an actual box of crystals, so we know the power source; it wasn't much, but Enkidu also wasn't much of a primal.

-Ysayle had faith in her own extremely misguided worldview and self-image; Shiva was essentially being summoned as Ysayle's idealized self. You could, in fact, argue that she'd accidentally reverse-engineered the Ancient's Weird Special Combat Forms. This faith isn't quite as strong for her final summoning against the flagship, but at that state she may have also developed a more conventional primal-summoning; her belief in the historical Shiva was always there, and is now taking the stage more than the notion that it's her. They also actually made a point that she only Primals Up into Shiva in areas with naturally high aether resources; usually natural crystal outcroppings. Again this is also a little different for the flagship battle, but there she calls on the Crystal of Light to provide that aether for her.

-Tsukuyomi is indeed an interesting one, but not because it can't have happened by the rules we know; instead, it's more because we don't really know Yotsuyu very well. She might be a woman of faith; it never really came up. But it's also notable that this was a primal who was so inaccurate to the collective image of the figure that it came up in the lore; Tsukuyomi's depicted as very calm, and... well, as a guy, so obviously Yotsuyu was not holding very close to that myth. My general vibe is that Tsukuyomi formed not because of Yotsuyu's faith in the deity per se, but her faith in herself, that happened to form into something Tsukuyomi-esque because of her own associations and the mirror that provided all the aether. I'd compare Tsukuyomi to Shinryu in a sense; not formed out of faith per se so much as stalwart conviction, a faith in yourself and your goals, so as a result the physical form was almost incidental and just informed by the summoner's personal associations. Yotsuyu got Tsukuyomi because of the mirror (and maybe some personal associations with death or the moon), Ilberd got Shinryu because of the dragon's eyes and probably his memory of Bahamut.

Faith can take many forms, and primals actually do a great job of showing that, especially in Heavensward; remember that Alexander was formed not out of faith in a god, but faith that this impossible blueprint could totally work.

Honestly, I don't see what you don't see that says these summons were somehow impossible without some Mystery Energy that, in all honesty, wouldn't have provided anything in these cases anyway.

Or did they?

They didn't. We know because they literally couldn't, their inability to use and manipulate dynamis was a huge plot point, that... for some reason I see people just pretend doesn't exist sometimes.