Faith, Dynamis, Aether, Summoning

[RyuDragnier]

Best I can think of to explain that Sanna, is that the summoning requirement is the equivalent a "glass" that needs filling. You can fill it with any combination of Aether or Dynamis, as long as the total amount completely fills the glass. But that's me taking a shot in the dark.

[Lyth]

Elpis flowers are entelechies. Entelechies turn potential into actuality ('telos' meaning 'end'). The ambient emotion that they experience is converted into a manifestation of Dynamis.

Everyone has emotions, regardless of aetheric composition. So rather than saying that Hermes changes the colour of the Elpis flower, it's more accurate to say that the Elpis flower responds to the ambient emotion that Hermes possesses and changes its colour by a dynamis-mediated effect.

The same is true for Meteion as well. As an entelechy, she experiences others' emotions as if they were her own (refer to the candied apples example). She is so influenced by the negative ambiance of Ultima Thule that she speaks on behalf of the dead ('We have suffered.') Our fight with her is not really about wielding Dynamis as a weapon the same way we would Aether. We simply alter the emotional state of Ultima Thule by introducing our hope, our beliefs, and our resilience. And slowly, Ultima Thule itself changes as a result through the power of Dynamis. This is more of a subconscious act than a conscious one.

The Aether limitation has to do with the fact that Dynamis itself is more subtle than Aether. As an analogy, in our own world, physics describes four fundamental forces - Gravity, Electromagnetism, Strong Nuclear and Weak Nuclear forces. Each of these are influenced by the scale that you're looking at. So while the Strong Nuclear Force may be much more powerful on a subatomic level, it might appear insignificant when you're talking about physical objects that we see in our day to day lives (which are dominated by Gravity and Electromagnetism). Dynamis effects themselves are less obvious in very aetherically dense regions, and very aetherically dense beings are less likely to affect or be affected by Dynamis (much like how a planet's movement is more likely to be influenced by Gravity than the Strong Nuclear Force). But as the aetheric density lessens in the outer expanses of space, Dynamis comes to dominate. Hermes is not able to influence Dynamis directly. However, by creating a being of suitable aetheric density, he can observe Dynamis-related effects manifest themselves, similar to how the Hannish scholars did by observing Elpis blooms (or similar to how humans use accelerators to create subatomic particles and observe Strong Nuclear effects).

On the subject of whether there's a connection between Faith and Dynamis, that's hard to say at this point. If you take everything that the Amaurotines put forward as truth, then Summoning is merely a derivative and inferior form of their own Creation magic. But they didn't really know about Dynamis in the first place. It's possible that, unconsciously, modern summoners have produced something with even more potential power than the Amaurotines previously envisioned, by linking Aether and Dynamis. Perhaps we'll learn more in Meracydia.

As to why some people are so reluctant to accept the discussion about Dynamis/Akasha, it really depends on the person. Dogma is always difficult to overcome, and if you introduce something as a 'rule' initially, some people can't move past the possibility that it could be wrong. Science perpetually requires you to have the flexibility to reject old theories. Personally, I really like the 'thought/feeling' dichotomy that it presents. It's also interesting seeing a clash of values between the traditional classical thinking that has dominated Western philosophy and Vedic mysticism/spiritualism.

[SannaR]

I really don't like Shinryu as when I originally went through it I thought that everyone else who lay there dying would have been counted as part of they who summoned. I'm not sure why I didn't figure that those who had been praying to Rhalgr were just the fuel. Or that it doesn't really take much on the emotional side since both Titan and Ifrit get summoned with just 2-3 of their followers when Garuda is trying to stave off her death after we defeated her. I guess I never equated the strength of the current summon of whatever primal was really only reliant on the amount of aether used up and that whatever filled in the faith/prayer aspect didn't really matter or how much of it got put in.

Edit: I did mean the Shiva summoning mid falling one when I mentioned Ysayle.

[Eisi]

Elpis flowers are entelechies. Entelechies turn potential into actuality ('telos' meaning 'end'). The ambient emotion that they experience is converted into a manifestation of Dynamis.

Everyone has emotions, regardless of aetheric composition. So rather than saying that Hermes changes the colour of the Elpis flower, it's more accurate to say that the Elpis flower responds to the ambient emotion that Hermes possesses and changes its colour by a dynamis-mediated effect.

Ok I understand!

So Aetherys has Dynamis and Aether. However there is so much aether that dynamis interactions can almost not happen. Entelechies, which are themselves aetherial beings, not made of dynamis, are an exception, they, through some sort of interaction with ambient dynamis change their aetherial composition.

So:

Elpis flower >>>(change in ambient dynamis by way of change in ambient emotion)>>> Color change.

So the change in dynamis is the same wherever you go, it's just that in aether-rich environments that usually doesn't affect anything did I get that right? It's not that Dynamis is less volatile on Etheirys or that the beings on Etheirys are less capable of influencing it or anything, it simply doesn't get to itself then influence anything outside of entelechies.

The same is true for Meteion as well. As an entelechy, she experiences others' emotions as if they were her own (refer to the candied apples example). She is so influenced by the negative ambiance of Ultima Thule that she speaks on behalf of the dead ('We have suffered.') Our fight with her is not really about wielding Dynamis as a weapon the same way we would Aether. We simply alter the emotional state of Ultima Thule by introducing our hope, our beliefs, and our resilience. And slowly, Ultima Thule itself changes as a result through the power of Dynamis. This is more of a subconscious act than a conscious one.

And it doesn't matter how aetherially dense we are right? Ultima Thule will react the same way even if we were Unsundered.

Dynamis effects themselves are less obvious in very aetherically dense regions, and very aetherically dense beings are less likely to affect or be affected by Dynamis (much like how a planet's movement is more likely to be influenced by Gravity than the Strong Nuclear Force).

Oh, ok I didn't understand it then. So my new understanding that would follow from this is then that the emotions that influence ambient dynamis are still there, but in aetherially dense people they get blocked by their aether kinda. So that the Dynamis doesn't get affected.

But as the aetheric density lessens in the outer expanses of space, Dynamis comes to dominate. Hermes is not able to influence Dynamis directly.

I so don't understand this. Every time I think I got it something comes up that throws me off again. So Hermes can't influence Dynamis, but didn't the Elpis flowers change color for him? He must have influenced dynamis with his emotions. Subconsciously, sure, but he could do it! Just like us, no?

However, by creating a being of suitable aetheric density, he can observe Dynamis-related effects manifest themselves, similar to how the Hannish scholars did by observing Elpis blooms (or similar to how humans use accelerators to create subatomic particles and observe Strong Nuclear effects).

Makes sense, but just being low in aether doesn't make you an entelechy am I right?

On the subject of whether there's a connection between Faith and Dynamis, that's hard to say at this point. If you take everything that the Amaurotines put forward as truth, then Summoning is merely a derivative and inferior form of their own Creation magic. But they didn't really know about Dynamis in the first place. It's possible that, unconsciously, modern summoners have produced something with even more potential power than the Amaurotines previously envisioned, by linking Aether and Dynamis. Perhaps we'll learn more in Meracydia.

That would be cool! I kinda don't wanna see Dynamis dropped tbh.

As to why some people are so reluctant to accept the discussion about Dynamis/Akasha, it really depends on the person. Dogma is always difficult to overcome, and if you introduce something as a 'rule' initially, some people can't move past the possibility that it could be wrong. Science perpetually requires you to have the flexibility to reject old theories. Personally, I really like the 'thought/feeling' dichotomy that it presents. It's also interesting seeing a clash of values between the traditional classical thinking that has dominated Western philosophy and Vedic mysticism/spiritualism.

I have a hard time with a concept that is deliberately designed to be vague, it seems like it's an asspull tool tbh and that's why it doesn't have clear rules and limitations.

I like characters and themes and emotions, those are all allowed to be contradictory and confusing if they resonate well. But a fictional energy form with massive and very obvious effects I'd like to be more clearly defined personally.

[Lyth]

...

Entelechies are not the only entities capable of interacting with Dynamis. The tank limit break that we use during the fight with the Endsinger has been identified as a manifestation of Dynamis. The only limitation that we've been told about is based on aetheric density. Meteion comments that we appear to be similar to entelechies in terms of density, but Hermes clarifies that we're not the same. One major difference that makes us different from Entelechies is that we don't experience others' emotions as our own. That ends up being a critical point in Ultima Thule, as the emotions we bring with us override the despair of the place, whereas an entelechy would be overwhelmed by it.

In the case of the Amaurotines, their higher aetheric density means that they can't interact directly with Dynamis or be directly affected by it. During the Final Days of Amaurot, the Amaurotines themselves didn't transform into blasphemies, because they cannot be directly affected by it. Their creations transformed instead, because they were at a lower aetheric density, and the creations turned on their masters. There are interesting implications around this, though. The Role Quests had us hunt down all the 'original' Blasphemies who initiated the Final Days to each region. Which raises the question of who or what was the very first Blasphemy that brought on the downfall of Amaurot? It couldn't be an Amaurotine, because they wouldn't have transformed even if they were in despair. Was it a creation frustrated with their living conditions? Or could it be a despairing soul that was inadvertently fused to a creation, as described in the Phoinix story? Or perhaps it was a hemitheos.

The Elpis blooms lead scholars to deduce the existence of Dynamis. It's not that you're using Dynamis to change the colour of the flower. The reason the flower is able to manifest a colour change is because it is the source of that Dynamis effect, not the person holding it. That's why other flowers don't change colour in response to your emotions. The reason that your feelings are able to influence the Elpis blooms is because they are entelechies, much like how Meteion's emotional state changes when she's around Hermes.

[JepMZ]

I know there's a specific sidequest with a viera boy that praying to a crystal charm was a form of dynamis.but we already knowing summoning is just the derivative of Ancient ones' creation magic, it would be devoid of dynamis involvement since the ancients are already established to not be capable to sense or use them.

[KageTokage]

Emotions do influence primal summonings (Most notably when Ga Bu summons Titan) and aether is also described as being capable of being manipulated by raw emotion (Such as with DRK)...but both bits of lore were established before dynamis was even conceptualized, so unless explicitly confirmed I feel reluctant to immediately attribute any magicks or phenomena involving emotion to dynamis and rather believe there's some degree of overlap in that regard.

[Cleretic]

Emotions do influence primal summonings (Most notably when Ga Bu summons Titan) and aether is also described as being capable of being manipulated by raw emotion (Such as with DRK)...but both bits of lore were established before dynamis was even conceptualized, so unless explicitly confirmed I feel reluctant to immediately attribute any magicks or phenomena involving emotion to dynamis and rather believe there's some degree of overlap in that regard.

Yeah, most of what gets attributed to dynamis that isn't credited with that in the actual game just strikes me as completely understandable without them; nobody was saying that Dark Knight made no sense before Endwalker, after all.

Even the one I do stand behind, the Totentantz, I don't just stand behind because I looked at it and went 'yep, that looks like dynamis'. It mostly stands out to me because if you talk to random NPCs around Radz-at-Han, one of them will describe the Blasphemies in exactly the same terms that the dancer troupe describes the Totentantz, and with Thavnair having a formalized if esoteric study into the concept* before the sky exploded, it seems like that's not just coincidence that two different Hannish sources use matching descriptions.

*Still a little annoyed that everyone just stopped using the term 'akasa' the moment 'dynamis' got introduced, by the way; it feels like marginalizing Thavnair for no reason, and 'akasa' is just a much more interesting word to say in conversation.