Why is DRG's design considered one of the best?

[Ilyn]

I just think it could be streamlined a bit , mainly by giving it more distinct single and aoe rotations and giving it a more systematic gap closer/disengage mechanic . Give Spinshatter Dive/Piercing Talon/Elusive jump its own combo , make Dragonfire Dive an Aoe Variant to Mirage Dive and make Dragonsight like Dance Partner and let it proc with BL & LC .

[Renathras]

Best designed DPS is probably BLM now, or even Job.

I'm always surprised when people say this because I absolutely hate BLM.

Honestly, RDM is probably the best designed one. It's been around since SB (4.0 vs BLM's 2.0), but it essentially...hasn't changed since then. They've tinkered with the mana costs and Manafication so you can get in a triple combo, but the core rotation is the same, and even that isn't something you WEREN'T trying to do (double combo) before anyway. Manafication also is a 110 sec CD, not a 120, allowing it to drift around and it isn't locked to the 2 min meta, not much more than BLM, anyway. While the Manafication change SEEMS like simplification (since it's just 50/50 not "double" and thus not variable), because of how you use it to maximize your burst when you can, it actually produces a higher skill ceiling.

It's the epitome of "easy to learn, hard to master", as it's immediately understandable from a quick tooltip read what you're trying to do on the Job at a base level (short cast -> long cast, use Fire/Stone instead of Jolt when possible, get your Mana slightly unbalanced but not too much, use melee combo; repeat), while having nuance to truly master it.

How has its abilities changed? Well, in ShB (its first expansion) it got Scorch added. Pressing Jolt after your combo. (And Reprise, but no one uses that) In EW (its second expansion) it got Resolution added. Pressing Jolt...again. Oh, and Magicked Barrier and Acceleration being changed to a modified Swiftcast to make Reprise even more meaningless.

Where BLM has had various additions like Enochian, Triplecast, and Polyglot stacks that changed its rotation, execution, and somewhat how you play the Job (seriously, go look at The Balance's BLM optimal rotation while leveling breakdown across the level ranges where every few levels, the optimal changes completely, and does so at each level cap, and none of those are the same as the level 90 optimal, meaning the optimal rotation has changed every expansion), RDM has remained essentially the same since its inception.

The only issue it's ever had is tuning, and that's because the Devs overvalue Verraise, and not a problem with the Job's design itself.

DRG has very excellent burst but I agree, playing it right now has way, way too many buttons to press. If I don't die to mechanics because a jump is locking me into place then I die because I am focusing too much on my hotbar that I can't pay attention to what is going on around me. SAM has this issue, too.

FFXIV has become the MMO king of ability bloat.

...

Mostly agree with this (and some of the rest, but focusing on this). It's not always true, but I do think there's a lot of ability bloat and a lot of overly complicated rotations where the game is more about muscle memory while dancing than it is about intelligent use of abilities or consideration of situations. Ironically the only role that still has any semblance of independent thought is also the most maligned, Healers, since they can actually consider which ability to use. They may "all do the same thing" (not, but "all deal with the situation in different ways" is probably accurate), but considering/planning CDs already requires more thought than most DPS rotations, which are just "do the rotation for 12 minutes straight, don't step in bad, win". Outside of some very specific situations where you need to know when to do something like slightly delay burst, there's not thought in executing 1-2-3 and pressing 5 on CD.

.

THAT.
SAID:

I firmly believe there should be different Jobs for different players. I love RDM, I like SMN, I hate BLM. This is fine. I don't want BLM changed to suit me just as I wouldn't want RDM changed way from what I like to suit someone else. A lot of people like DRG. For all its bloat and clunk, it's CONSISTENT, unlike proc based Jobs (like DNC or RDM or BRD) and it doesn't have a lot of gauges and DoTs and juggling upkeep stuff (your main upkeep buff is autopilot upkept just by doing your rotation). For people that want to learn a thing and do it the same every time, DRG is going to be appealing, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Different Jobs for different people/types of people. I think that's what everyone needs to embrace. If a Job isn't for you...well, don't play it, then. There are a lot of different Jobs with different feels and playstyles. Find the ones that suit yours. Does that mean sometimes you don't get the aesthetic you want? It might...but if they bend that one Job you really like the look of but not the mechanics of to suit you, then where does it end? Do they rob other players of Jobs they like? Do they let other people ask that every Job be made to suit them, even if that means you won't like them anymore?

Better that we have lots of diversity and let people self-sort to the ones they like best. If the aesthetic is the most important, you can adapt to the Job's mechanics. If the mechanics are the most important, you can find a Job that suits you mechanically and stick with that. Everyone wins.

[CelestiCer]

I'm always surprised when people say this because I absolutely hate BLM. / -snip- /
Honestly, RDM is probably the best designed one.

My reasonings is because RDM has had way more issues throughout its existence then BLM from my PoV and I only played since Shadowbringers Expansion.

Plagued with Ranged Tax that BLM notices less of at the high end due to performance numbers, RDM also on-top of that feel Utility Tax that many RDM players have noted. Though that makes RDM good in prog? as does dying against Raidwides since Magick barrier is nice for the party? not so much to RDM's getting blown up vs BLM's stronger Mana-Ward for themselves. Unironically due to the nature of RDM's skill-kit not having it's Melee Thrust and Back-Dash available nor can cast it whenever they please? RDM has less mobility options vs BLM, even when RDM does less damage. And most of this is me saying it viewing it from Savage, in normal content you can mess up with any Job all you want and most of these issues are less noticeable.

You could argue RDM is designed well, plays unique, is true to being a caster, and reps having utility and all I am nitpicking are number tweaks? but even with tweaks, I just think RDM can be a lot better and has had a lot more problems that require some QOL changes in its design vs BLM being honestly borderline perfect in comparison.

[Lyth]

...

I don't understand how your reply addresses my quoted post. Are you claiming that job 'difficulty' is not one of the most frequently discussed topics on this subforum? You are quite active in such discussions, so it's not like you're not fully aware of this.

It's normal to feel frustrated when you've been consistently unable to directly bring about the job changes that you want. But you can't brute force changes into happening as a player. And when your methods are demonstrably ineffective, then perhaps the problem is in the approach? We've managed to successfully bring about a number of changes with DRK's design over the years which were met with direct dev team engagement. You can look through my created threads history if you want to see evidence of that. Some of them took longer than others (Living Dead), but they still eventually happened. If you want to be effective, then you have to be willing to reflect on where your own mistakes are.

The central point of my last post was that you can influence the design question as a consumer, but not its solution. When you complain that your job is 'harder to play than others' but isn't adequately compensated for that with more damage output, the problem that you're putting forward is around job difficulty. That means that they could buff your job's damage output, but they just as easily could make your job easier to play. You have no control over which solution they pick, so the sensible thing to do is to avoid making this be the design focus in the first place.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think the bulk of the 'reworks' announced this expansion are melee dps? There's a reason for everything, if you soul search. Have a think about it and get back to me.

[Deo14]

If that is how you feel that is fine though despite your sarcasm the community is way sbove the likes of WoW or LoL.
Doesnt take much besides just acknowledging a disagreement is not anything to become terse over.

You forgot to say "April!". No way anyone would even consider comparing MMORPG community with to f2p MOBA game, right? Also there was no sarcasm in my response lil bro.

[CelestiCer]

Just out of curiosity, why do you think the bulk of the 'reworks' announced this expansion are melee dps? There's a reason for everything, if you soul search. Have a think about it and get back to me.

Your claim that Job difficulty is the most frequently discussed Topic is what I disagree with. Players discussing changes happening/having happened/ wanting to see happen are the most frequently discussed topics.

Even if your claim was true? the way you wrote that " Players want to proof their Job Top DPS proven based off of Difficulty " is misleading. I don't see a hoard of any x Jobs dominating the (Sub)Forum in numbers wanting to do so. Quite the claim? that all forum posters amount to is whining about not doing enough DPS based on them being the most difficult Job. My main language is not English, maybe I am a bad reader... but I don't think this is the most discussed Topic no...

Yoshi suggested players to " give Player-Feedback through Forums ". Includes your Job, changes you wanna see or don't wanna see. Square has ignored this multiple times and you're suggesting to do more then what Square suggested which we have done and it takes sometimes years to see results? or no results. And if you're going to suggest everyone to be the next Zepla/Asmon/Xenos to more easily get attention from Square for the changes we want to see? that's quite the realistic take...

The bulk of the reworks announced this Expansion being Melee DPS? weird question. We had SMN MCH PLD reworks, NIN tweak and a borderline stupid " Kaiten " removal. AST DRG were announced? I guess AST is a melee according to your question? All I see is Square wanting to appeal to a wider audience that are casual. Thus dumb down the Jobs regardless of the backlash and leave BLM alone cause Yoshi-P. I don't believe any of the changes or lack of are largely based or done due to Player-Feedback. I hope they don't do DRG dirty.

But hey? Soul search hard enough... to " please look forward to " complaining about those changes in the future on the forums.

[Lyth]

???

If you are fully aware that you're not interpreting a post correctly due to linguistic struggles, it's probably best to be open-minded and ask for clarification.

There is a distinction between 'one of the most frequently discussed' and 'the most frequently discussed'. The former is blatantly obvious to anyone who has been reading these forums for the past 10 years or so, while the latter, while possible, is both onerous and unnecessary to prove.

Players are often keen to provide feedback, but people aren't born effective communicators (and randomly bolding words, bulleting sentences, or compiling lists of links to spam threads is hardly a surrogate for eloquence). It's easy enough to vocalize unhappiness. But do you actually have the right insights into the problem and the ability to articulate what they are? And more often than not, while players may agree that they are unhappy, they may not be able to reach consensus on a viable solution.

As for why every melee dps job has been subject to reworks this expansion, the answer is simple. There was a new kid on the block, and everyone suddenly became insecure over it. SAM was in a fantastic place at the end of Shadowbringers, and they would have maintained that easily had they just been content with what they had. But for whatever reason, this forum was up in arms at 6.0's launch over issues around how melee jobs were rewarded for 'difficulty' relative to the new job. Longstanding melee players were expecting dps buffs to secure themselves raid spots in the face of fresh competition. What they got were job simplifications and a Monkey's Paw. We'll see the same thing play out next expansion if they release a new caster. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. If you're generally happy with the gameplay that you have, then just observe.

[AsiTsurugi]

(and randomly bolding words, bulleting sentences, or compiling lists of links to spam threads is hardly a surrogate for eloquence).

Neither is writing barely grammatically correct paragraphs by people who delude themselves to be "qualified" enough to be spouting their opinions as facts, especially in light of complete and utter lack of evidence to support said delusion in the slightest, while denigrating anyone with opposing views based on their misguided sense of "superiority" because they just so happen to write barely coherent sentences and have no other redeeming qualities of any sort.

[CelestiCer]

If you are fully aware that you're not interpreting a post correctly due to linguistic struggles, it's probably best to be open-minded and ask for clarification.

I am not misinterpreting anything, specially not when I quote sentences directly from your posts of which you fail to give the same courtesy. You ask of players to be " direct ", while your posts are linguistic jargon juggling between subtle passive aggressive jabs like " linguistic struggles " while insulting 100s of voices from my" Compiled Samurai List " indirectly... as if they were non existing and just Spam. " Be upfront " with what you mean.

Majority of the threads simply are not about DPS mains crying about being entitled to Top DPS by proving their Jobs to be the most difficult. A momentary peak like you said yourself... doesn't paint the broader picture. Plenty topics are about...

• Job Design discussions like this one
• Job Skills anything
• Job Feedback upon patch
• Job Skill issues and bugs like that of the NIN one by Stella
• Job suggestions and changes
• Even topics about new Jobs

And many more other topics I'm sure across that 10 years of reading forums.

Misleading it all with just enough correct facts, but to skew it into your narrative because you want it to be about DPS performance based off of Difficulty <- I know Square mentioned this themselves, but even they don't follow their own words. My English might sound basic? but at least I am direct. Communicating with you is like talking to politician. All words, no substance, Zero points made, Zero arguments actually tackled sprinkled with insults, yet layered with enough jargon to keep it subtle.

I am being nice though you can tell as I am using your own words here cause I remember that I have quote " linguistic struggles " as you put it right? Try and be more direct please and actually say what you want to say next time - you know as you yourself tell others to do as well that is. Mhm.

[Eisi]

" look! a shiny button! go press it! ".

Literally current Dragoon.