Why is DRG's design considered one of the best?

[Ransu]

DRG has very excellent burst but I agree, playing it right now has way, way too many buttons to press. If I don't die to mechanics because a jump is locking me into place then I die because I am focusing too much on my hotbar that I can't pay attention to what is going on around me. SAM has this issue, too.

FFXIV has become the MMO king of ability bloat. Half of the abilities from every DPS job could be deleted and it would vastly improve the gameplay.

DRG jumps should grant temporary invincibility and delete at least one of the damage rotations. Job would be 200% better overnight.

People mention SMN, I don't know why they removed all the DoTs from it and then made the job much more complicated. While it's fun to actually summon different Primals during the damage rotation I wish they would have kept the core of SMN the same, so I do agree it seems Devs are trying to streamline DPS jobs to all basically be these enormous ability bloat chains with 4-5 different damage rotations to learn. It is become a game of pressing the right button for the combo instead of a game of fluid combat using an ability for the situation you are in.

A) Keybinds are a thing. Learn how to keybind.

B) In what world did SMN become more complicated????

[Deo14]

A) Keybinds are a thing. Learn how to keybind.

B) In what world did SMN become more complicated????

You're talking to someone who suggests temporal invincibility, don't even bother.

[Renathras]

Best designed DPS is probably BLM now, or even Job.

I'm always surprised when people say this because I absolutely hate BLM.

Honestly, RDM is probably the best designed one. It's been around since SB (4.0 vs BLM's 2.0), but it essentially...hasn't changed since then. They've tinkered with the mana costs and Manafication so you can get in a triple combo, but the core rotation is the same, and even that isn't something you WEREN'T trying to do (double combo) before anyway. Manafication also is a 110 sec CD, not a 120, allowing it to drift around and it isn't locked to the 2 min meta, not much more than BLM, anyway. While the Manafication change SEEMS like simplification (since it's just 50/50 not "double" and thus not variable), because of how you use it to maximize your burst when you can, it actually produces a higher skill ceiling.

It's the epitome of "easy to learn, hard to master", as it's immediately understandable from a quick tooltip read what you're trying to do on the Job at a base level (short cast -> long cast, use Fire/Stone instead of Jolt when possible, get your Mana slightly unbalanced but not too much, use melee combo; repeat), while having nuance to truly master it.

How has its abilities changed? Well, in ShB (its first expansion) it got Scorch added. Pressing Jolt after your combo. (And Reprise, but no one uses that) In EW (its second expansion) it got Resolution added. Pressing Jolt...again. Oh, and Magicked Barrier and Acceleration being changed to a modified Swiftcast to make Reprise even more meaningless.

Where BLM has had various additions like Enochian, Triplecast, and Polyglot stacks that changed its rotation, execution, and somewhat how you play the Job (seriously, go look at The Balance's BLM optimal rotation while leveling breakdown across the level ranges where every few levels, the optimal changes completely, and does so at each level cap, and none of those are the same as the level 90 optimal, meaning the optimal rotation has changed every expansion), RDM has remained essentially the same since its inception.

The only issue it's ever had is tuning, and that's because the Devs overvalue Verraise, and not a problem with the Job's design itself.

DRG has very excellent burst but I agree, playing it right now has way, way too many buttons to press. If I don't die to mechanics because a jump is locking me into place then I die because I am focusing too much on my hotbar that I can't pay attention to what is going on around me. SAM has this issue, too.

FFXIV has become the MMO king of ability bloat.

...

Mostly agree with this (and some of the rest, but focusing on this). It's not always true, but I do think there's a lot of ability bloat and a lot of overly complicated rotations where the game is more about muscle memory while dancing than it is about intelligent use of abilities or consideration of situations. Ironically the only role that still has any semblance of independent thought is also the most maligned, Healers, since they can actually consider which ability to use. They may "all do the same thing" (not, but "all deal with the situation in different ways" is probably accurate), but considering/planning CDs already requires more thought than most DPS rotations, which are just "do the rotation for 12 minutes straight, don't step in bad, win". Outside of some very specific situations where you need to know when to do something like slightly delay burst, there's not thought in executing 1-2-3 and pressing 5 on CD.

.

THAT.
SAID:

I firmly believe there should be different Jobs for different players. I love RDM, I like SMN, I hate BLM. This is fine. I don't want BLM changed to suit me just as I wouldn't want RDM changed way from what I like to suit someone else. A lot of people like DRG. For all its bloat and clunk, it's CONSISTENT, unlike proc based Jobs (like DNC or RDM or BRD) and it doesn't have a lot of gauges and DoTs and juggling upkeep stuff (your main upkeep buff is autopilot upkept just by doing your rotation). For people that want to learn a thing and do it the same every time, DRG is going to be appealing, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Different Jobs for different people/types of people. I think that's what everyone needs to embrace. If a Job isn't for you...well, don't play it, then. There are a lot of different Jobs with different feels and playstyles. Find the ones that suit yours. Does that mean sometimes you don't get the aesthetic you want? It might...but if they bend that one Job you really like the look of but not the mechanics of to suit you, then where does it end? Do they rob other players of Jobs they like? Do they let other people ask that every Job be made to suit them, even if that means you won't like them anymore?

Better that we have lots of diversity and let people self-sort to the ones they like best. If the aesthetic is the most important, you can adapt to the Job's mechanics. If the mechanics are the most important, you can find a Job that suits you mechanically and stick with that. Everyone wins.

[CelestiCer]

I'm always surprised when people say this because I absolutely hate BLM. / -snip- /
Honestly, RDM is probably the best designed one.

My reasonings is because RDM has had way more issues throughout its existence then BLM from my PoV and I only played since Shadowbringers Expansion.

Plagued with Ranged Tax that BLM notices less of at the high end due to performance numbers, RDM also on-top of that feel Utility Tax that many RDM players have noted. Though that makes RDM good in prog? as does dying against Raidwides since Magick barrier is nice for the party? not so much to RDM's getting blown up vs BLM's stronger Mana-Ward for themselves. Unironically due to the nature of RDM's skill-kit not having it's Melee Thrust and Back-Dash available nor can cast it whenever they please? RDM has less mobility options vs BLM, even when RDM does less damage. And most of this is me saying it viewing it from Savage, in normal content you can mess up with any Job all you want and most of these issues are less noticeable.

You could argue RDM is designed well, plays unique, is true to being a caster, and reps having utility and all I am nitpicking are number tweaks? but even with tweaks, I just think RDM can be a lot better and has had a lot more problems that require some QOL changes in its design vs BLM being honestly borderline perfect in comparison.

[ZiraZ]

DRG doesn't have too many buttons please stop making stuff up, its in the lower middle for amount of keys between all melee.
DRG also doesn't have a bloat problem.

[ILikeTea]

Never claimed drg had too many buttons. What I said was that it had too many -ogcds- that essentially do the same thing, that have to be squeezed in together at the same time. I also didn't specify that it was a bloat problem, even though it technically is, as certain abilities don't seem to have a reason to be required to be used twice subsequently (jump/mirage dive, geirskogul/nastrond). If there is a consistent scenario in a fight where having them separated is a good thing, please tell me. As I said at the start, I am never claimed to be great at the job, and maybe I'm playing it wrong, but there has never been a situation during which; when I used geirskogul right after gauge triggers, I wouldn't use nastrond right away after. Why do I need to press the same button twice? how does this add to the skill expression of the job? how is this anything other than button bloat?

[Aco505]

What I said was that it had too many -ogcds- that essentially do the same thing, that have to be squeezed in together at the same time. I also didn't specify that it was a bloat problem, even though it technically is, as certain abilities don't seem to have a reason to be required to be used twice subsequently (jump/mirage dive, geirskogul/nastrond).

You quote MD as being unnecessary but it's not. HJ cannot give gauge directly the way it works right now. See here. It would require HJ to have two charges and probably a GSK cooldown change as well. MD is what provides flexibility to our Life of the Dragon window.

The only things in our kit that are there to just deal damage are Spineshatter Dive and Dragonfire Dive. I agree that these should be improved, perhaps, but not removed. They still fulfill the role of having to be used at specific points during burst for enhanced damage. Reminder that unlike other jobs, DRG gets to deal 23% more damage during burst due to having two 10% personal buffs instead of only one.

NAS having to be used immediately after GSK is due to two reasons: you need two NAS per Battle Litany and since the latter only lasts 15 seconds, it has to come out asap. It's the same button because one transforms into the other just like it happens with other jobs. By that rule of thumb, Tillana should be removed because it's used right after Technical Finish.

Also, if the number of oGCDs/actions the job has bothers you, then do you feel the same about DRK, GNB, PLD, NIN, SAM...? Plenty of other jobs have buttons that "just deal damage" and could be removed but then you'd be left with a skeletal thing.

Imho it's better not to ask for removal of things but improvements of what exists or new ways of making the kit fun. Taking things away doesn't usually lead to that (see SAM and SMN).

[Lyth]

Reworks are by and large a function of player complaints around 'job difficulty'. The less a job's players try to leverage supposed 'job difficulty' to claim that they are automatically entitled to a dps advantage over others, the less likely the job is to get a simplifying rework. It's actually in everyone's benefit in the long run to advocate for a level playing field rather than trying to score short term advantages over other jobs.

[CelestiCer]

Reworks are by and large a function of player complaints around 'job difficulty'. The less a job's players try to leverage supposed 'job difficulty' to claim that they are automatically entitled to a dps advantage over others, the less likely the job is to get a simplifying rework. It's actually in everyone's benefit in the long run to advocate for a level playing field rather than trying to score short term advantages over other jobs.

I disagree? Square implements simplifications/hollowing out of Jobs whenever and however the hell they want regardless of Player-Feedback. Then if you desire any lost difficulty/complexity from your Job? Remember, we were told to " Just go play Ultimate " and " Give us your feedback ", that will get ignored.

As of SHB up towards EW present, plenty players of Jobs that received simplifications did not request to be changed or simplified even advocating to not do that. Majority also didn't complain about Job performances based on how finger-breaking their Jobs difficulty is more so then advocating for fairness, that's different. DRG is the next DPS in line and I believe they generally aren't complaining vs desiring Fairness, QOL changes and not receive the " Welp, I'm sadly not a BLM " treatment. But sadly like DRG's, many of us aren't BLM mains right? so we're all next up on the chopping block.

We receive changes because Square wants it for whatever reasons. Easier to balance or make the tasks easier for the Dev's, who knows. They think its right, it's their game, it's their Jobs not ours.

[Lyth]

...

Job 'difficulty' is actually one of the most frequently discussed topics on this subforum. Just have a look at the currently active topics. Even just recently we witnessed a fairly heated debate over whether SAM or BLM is the hardest job in the known universe. Players go into these sort of exchanges expecting the following:

Problem: 'I have proven that Job X is the hardest job in the game by winning the debate.'
Solution: 'Job X should therefore rewarded be with the highest dps and become a mandatory pick in all content.'

What you get instead is this:

Player Feedback: 'Job X is the hardest job in the game.'
Implemented Solution: 'Rework Job X so that it's less difficult.'

Player feedback about the 'problem' is addressed. It's just that the solution they've implemented is completely different from the one that players were expecting.

Now if players were actually upfront about what they were actually after (i.e. 'I want my job to have the highest dps and be a mandatory pick in all content'), then you wouldn't have this issue at all. Of course, such feedback is likely to be ignored as it should be, but at least you won't have to watch your beloved job be ripped apart by the rework gods.

There's nothing wrong with presenting feedback itself, but there are always multiple solutions to any proposed problem. We do as players have the ability define design problems. It's the solution that is generally outside our control.