BLM DPS

[Turtledeluxe]

If you play BLM and do similar or lower damage (yes, even rdps) to a similarly geared RDM or BRD, the issue is probably user error. If you are referring to DPS in fights, perhaps look into your timeline and find places where you can squeeze out more casts, or use a different spell speed you are more comfortable with.

I'd say BLM and SAM can use some help now, but what of RDM and BRD? Those are actually the classes people are ditching now.

Why would they be ditched? Do those players not like providing support? I'm genuinely curious. Are you saying people are ditching these classes because of DPS?

[NullPointerException]

First 50 clears of savage has 65% SMN vs 20% BLM vs 15% RDM, ranged were 88%DNC vs 11%BRD (that was pre-mch-buff). Current TOP clears are 836 SMN vs 144 RDM vs 180 BLM; phys ranged see 550 MCH vs 509 DNC vs 97 BRD. High-end prog strongly biases AGAINST RDM and BRD despite the "utility".

I can speak to RDM a lot more. The class just does not bring enough damage for player effort compared to SMN, both in terms of max and average. In the expansion update there were also design oversights. The mana costs were universally nearly halved, but enchanted reprisal costs the same as it did while doing less damage (2.2s gcd extended to 2.5s). Combo finishers generate the same mana as it did which make them critical for your mana generation, while you still lose everything when dying - this is problematic in prog. (remember SMN keeps its legos).

I can't speak for high-end BRD, but it is proc hell, and DNC is just much easier to play while still having the potential for more rDPS than other non-BLM ranged. The fact that songs need a target to cast is also absurd since that requires a target dummy fight to use BRD's max potential synchronizing song cycle with 120s feels just off.

"Providing support" - a 120s 10% magic only mit is not THAT good. The 5% healing up is very overrated and is basically ignored. The devs just don't play these class, at least not in high-end play-tests it seems.

Why can't BLM be just buffed? Because RDM being bad and SMN being braindead is dragging the role. Buffing BLM without fixing RDM will just make high-end mages a complete mess.

[Ransu]

BLM dps is for the most part fine, but I would like to see them pull away from melee a bit more given their playstyle and being a pure dps.

[Ggwppino]

BLM dps is for the most part fine, but I would like to see them pull away from melee a bit more given their playstyle and being a pure dps.

in aDPS-nDPS with the first melee (excluding the sam) it has a gap of about 5% while with casters it is 10%. In rDPS being that it has no buffs, it is in line with melee rDPS and has a 5% gap with casters. (considering the 90th). I actually find that quite fair

[Ransu]

in aDPS-nDPS with the first melee (excluding the sam) it has a gap of about 5% while with casters it is 10%. In rDPS being that it has no buffs, it is in line with melee rDPS and has a 5% gap with casters. (considering the 90th). I actually find that quite fair

And imo that is too low of a spread. BLM should be much further away from the melee.

[Renathras]

My point is that Why shoud a group take a BLM (with a good DPS like a lot of other class, yes BUT no other advantage) vs all the other class that do the SAME DPS but have some advantage...(SMN, RDM, NIN, RPR, BRD, etc .....)

SMN, RDM, BRD, etc do not do anywhere CLOSE to the damage BLM does.

The only Jobs that do comparable damage to BLM consistently are the Melee (RPR, MNK, NIN, DRG, SAM). SAM is the only other one that only brings damage (like BLM), so the other four doing more damage is based at least partly on their party buffing.

SMN and especially RDM do significantly less damage than BLM, as do MCH, DNC, and BRD. MCH/SMN (usually one or the other is next behind the Melee/BLM pack) do something like 7-10% less damage than BLM does.

in aDPS-nDPS with the first melee (excluding the sam) it has a gap of about 5% while with casters it is 10%. In rDPS being that it has no buffs, it is in line with melee rDPS and has a 5% gap with casters. (considering the 90th). I actually find that quite fair

Agreed. By the numbers, it seems pretty fair.

Some could argue that BLM and SAM should do the most DPS - I dunno about that, as why bring any other classes if that were true? - but they already are bringing more PERSONAL DPS than their peers, and BLM is well beyond SMN and RDM. BLM is more challenging to do that damage, but that's the point of the Job. If people wanted to play a Caster with those extra utility abilities, they play SMN or RDM. If they want to just have high personal damage with a high skill ceiling, they play a BLM.

EDIT:

I'll be really curious to see what happens next expansion if another 'non-utility caster' is added. Introducing in new jobs into a role invariably brings up insecurities and turf wars (as we've seen this expansion). Whenever players start comparing subjective experiences around 'job difficulty' to leverage more dps, you invariably see a simplifying rework get introduced. ('Oh, your job is more difficult than all the rest, you say? Well, why don't we just rework that instead of giving you a dps advantage over everyone else.')

The main reason why BLM has been so consistently successful to date is specifically because its players are fairly chill about the difficulty level and don't go out of their way to demand extra advantages for it. It's never been reworked as a result. As a result, the job is allowed to keep building on what it had previously, rather than having to recover from a rework/reset. If this mindset changes, though, the job is very quickly going to come into the rework crosshairs.

We saw this exact scenario play out already with a certain melee dps job and a certain deleted action this expansion. You know where this road leads. The choice is yours.

Bingo.

We can add PLD (6.3) and SMN (6.0) to the mix as well as possibly SCH/AST (5.0). All cases of "We do more work, can't we do more damage?" responded to with "Ohhhh, so you'd like us to lighten your workload while you do the same damage, then? Excellent idea!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXNYRdCWmJU
(I can't find JUST the Great Mouse Detective quote, so you'll have to deal with a mashup two-fer. XD)

EDIT2:

Why would they be ditched? Do those players not like providing support? I'm genuinely curious. Are you saying people are ditching these classes because of DPS?

To answer this question:

Because in most content you don't need a DPS that can Raise.

In 4 mans you don't need it unless the Healer dies, and even if that happens, Tanks can practically (or outright) solo most fights without a Healer. I'm not saying "Healers aren't needed", but I am saying that you don't need a RDM or SMN.

In 24 mans, you have 6 total Healers between the 3 parties. Unless they're ALL dead, you have people to Raise in most cases without needing a DPS that can. And even in the cases you might need that (cases where the three parties are split and can't safely raise each other's people), the DPS would have to be in that party.

In HIGH END 8 man content, Raises can help you during progression to see and map out phases, but once you have your healing plan down, have seen the mechanics and worked out the buffs and debuffs (or watched someone's guide), you don't strictly need Raises anymore. Given how many "body check" mechanics there are (where there's a wipe if one person is dead at a bad time, even if they're accepting a Raise), and how both your damage and max health are reduced after a Raise (making it harder to meet DPS checks and survive raidwides without being babied by the Healers), the extra utility of Raises goes down quite a bit once you're clearing content.

So in a very real way: YES, people are, in fact, ditching those classes because of DPS.

One reason so many more SMNs were brought to TOP wasn't just "because it's easier", it has a higher total damage than RDM does. So even once you no longer need the Raises anymore (once you have the mechanics worked out and in content where a death means a wipe anyway), SMN is still more valuable than RDM exactly because it brings more damage. The main reason BLM wasn't absolutely destroying it is because the fights require a lot of MOVEMENT (which SMN also excels at), not because BLM isn't doing enough damage. It takes a skilled player to get the most out of it, and a lot of people don't realize HOW mobile BLMs are - they're actually very mobile, people just often don't realize it. BLMs are also more mobile than RDMs, and as we can see in the percentages, BLMs are more taken to TOP clears than RDMs, 16.3% BLMs vs 12.2% RDMs. SMN just has the mix of high mobility and good ENOUGH damage with ease of play, which is why it's so much higher.

If BLM were as mobile as SMN, it'd be the top Caster, hands down.

Is it fun to have a combat Raise? Yes.
If you're that clutch RDM that Verraises 22 times in Eden 4 Normal during the week of release (ask me how I know!), does that feel amazing? Sure.

But in objective terms, it's not strictly useful, or AS useful as it seems like it should be in MOST content.

[Turtledeluxe]

Because in most content you don't need a DPS that can Raise.
One reason so many more SMNs were brought to TOP wasn't just "because it's easier", it has a higher total damage than RDM does. So even once you no longer need the Raises anymore (once you have the mechanics worked out and in content where a death means a wipe anyway), SMN is still more valuable than RDM exactly because it brings more damage. The main reason BLM wasn't absolutely destroying it is because the fights require a lot of MOVEMENT (which SMN also excels at), not because BLM isn't doing enough damage. It takes a skilled player to get the most out of it, and a lot of people don't realize HOW mobile BLMs are - they're actually very mobile, people just often don't realize it. BLMs are also more mobile than RDMs, and as we can see in the percentages, BLMs are more taken to TOP clears than RDMs, 16.3% BLMs vs 12.2% RDMs. SMN just has the mix of high mobility and good ENOUGH damage with ease of play, which is why it's so much higher.

Seems natural that raises would be preferred for prog and then afterward get ditched, true. But I would also say in general response
- Casual content being too easy is a separate and large problem imo, but the game is so old that I'm not sure it can be fixed.
- Yes, it makes sense that if you have two classes with comparative difficulty of mastery and one out DPS's another, then it will be picked (so SMN over RDM). Based on that maybe RDM needs to be looked at.
- Not every group, even when they are done with prog,is going to be peak performing I would think, and running strictly a meta composition of all top DPS. And even so, shouldn't their be some cases and parties where extra raise isn't essential? Otherwise these other classes wouldn't be used at any point over the lifecycle of the fights?
- I realise what you're saying about movement. Part of the issue about that from what I understand is simply that in order to keep up the challenge, fights are becoming more and more movement intensive, which makes BLM more of a challenge.
- BLM is mobile and can maximize DPS if you've mastered perfect placement within the context of its unique play style.

Still thinking SAM could get a bit of a nerf. Not to make BLM top of leaderboards, to make selfish dps make sense across the board, and to reward both play styles for playing their selfish dps classes well.

And I just want to say, before someone quotes me and says "You just want to see BLM at the top of the aDPS" -- no I don't. I want to answer the question of the topic.

[Shiroe]

Blm does damage like a low melee.., if they can sustain the dps (Top P1, Blm suck.., even Smn can out dps them there)
...Blm definitely need a buff, they should be the strongest dps class in the game¡ and not barely above mid

[SeiyaSoiya]

my point is not that BLM do not do damage.....

I know that BLM have a nice DPS quite even with other DPS class...

My point is that Why shoud a group take a BLM (with a good DPS like a lot of other class, yes BUT no other advantage) vs all the other class that do the SAME DPS but have some advantage...(SMN, RDM, NIN, RPR, BRD, etc .....)

So because BLM bring NOTHING more, i think BLM shoud do more DPS that other class

(and i don't speak about DPS on a dummy.....)

it does do more damage than other classes, at least other casters.
you just need to know how to optimize it well, it takes more effort to get to higher dps than smn or rdm but the possibility is there

[Vortagh]

like i said... on a dummy oh yes BLM do more DPS.... BUT, in a fight, when you need to move, to avoid attacks, the BLM dps is barely above mid dps class... with no advantage (no rez, no party buff, no heal,...)