BLM DPS

[NullPointerException]

First 50 clears of savage has 65% SMN vs 20% BLM vs 15% RDM, ranged were 88%DNC vs 11%BRD (that was pre-mch-buff). Current TOP clears are 836 SMN vs 144 RDM vs 180 BLM; phys ranged see 550 MCH vs 509 DNC vs 97 BRD. High-end prog strongly biases AGAINST RDM and BRD despite the "utility".

I can speak to RDM a lot more. The class just does not bring enough damage for player effort compared to SMN, both in terms of max and average. In the expansion update there were also design oversights. The mana costs were universally nearly halved, but enchanted reprisal costs the same as it did while doing less damage (2.2s gcd extended to 2.5s). Combo finishers generate the same mana as it did which make them critical for your mana generation, while you still lose everything when dying - this is problematic in prog. (remember SMN keeps its legos).

I can't speak for high-end BRD, but it is proc hell, and DNC is just much easier to play while still having the potential for more rDPS than other non-BLM ranged. The fact that songs need a target to cast is also absurd since that requires a target dummy fight to use BRD's max potential synchronizing song cycle with 120s feels just off.

"Providing support" - a 120s 10% magic only mit is not THAT good. The 5% healing up is very overrated and is basically ignored. The devs just don't play these class, at least not in high-end play-tests it seems.

Why can't BLM be just buffed? Because RDM being bad and SMN being braindead is dragging the role. Buffing BLM without fixing RDM will just make high-end mages a complete mess.

[Valence]

BLM doesn't bring the same rDPS as melee. What are you referring to? People can keep liking it, it's still not true.

Also why are some people who use these charts so incredibly jaded? Maybe someone hasn't looked at the logs before. I haven't. There could be a chance I am misreading them. And? Why do you immediately react to that with antagonism instead of explaining yourself?

I am sorry if I did and I see how it can come as such.

So I'll explain:

1) rdps metrics are the only metrics that are valuable for class comparison overall, then we can get deeper into discussing finer details like how certain jobs can inflate a little from things like quadratic rng (like for DNC unicorn parses at 99-100p), etc. It's what a job brings in terms of damage to a party.
2) while comparing jobs at lower percentiles (meaning, lower than high purple in savage tiers) can actually make sense on its own, it should not be used to compare job potential, because anything below that is full of rotational mistakes, deaths, debuffs, sloppy plays, etc. It makes sense to check out how a job fares under the hand of less experienced players for sure, but that's a different kind of balance (accessibility), where here we're talking about sheer numbers (mathematical potential).

-> On the latter point, if you open any chart above 80-90p (and below 99p), you'll see that the dps jobs are pretty well balanced within each other, but in two blocs: melee dps + BLM, and the second rate block being rPhys and SMN/RDM. BLM is therefore competing with melee jobs at theoretical level (and even more if we take into account crazy shit like transpose lines tech, but that's literally 0.00...1% of the playerbase, else it would bring the job even higher by 3-5%). Potentially, the problem is that the job dips harder than others when you get to lower percentiles, which is a problem of accessibility and not DPS.

[Valence]

Because, in the past, melee had less uptime, and so to compensate, they had higher damage.

The fact fight design has shifted so that melees basically have full uptime, just like every other job, is a more recent change, of which I have acknowledged, if fight design stays as it is, then all jobs need to be looked at, not just BLM. However, until such a time, it is still based on the older balancing model.

Melee superiority hasn't changed since before ShB. It just made melee dps work harder for it to overcome uptime and deal with more positionals and more loss from missed positionals. Which in essence made the top percentiles literally unchanged where the lower ranks dipped harder as a result. It's always the same song: we're dealing with jobs that technically only have 2 very clean DPS caps (the actual DPS and the taxed 1% party garbage DPS), but with sometimes wildly different complexities of basic requirements and execution that completely mess balance at lower levels.

The only difference was SMN that hung up there with the rest.

[Lyth]

All DPS subroles and jobs should have rDPS parity across the board. It's the primary thing that we focus on as players, and all other considerations are secondary to that.

There's no reason whatsoever why occasionally stopping to cast a spell, moving to hit a positional, or remembering to hit a proc should be considered 'unmanageable'. If you think that one of these things are particularly 'difficult', that's just a reflection of your own personal weaknesses as a player, and you should work on practicing to rectify that deficiency rather than demanding to be compensated for simply doing your job. This constant pleading for dps advantages and handouts on the forums because jobs are supposedly 'difficult' is a big part of why we're seeing a downward rework spiral in so many jobs right now.

If we all cooperated and were genuine in our feedback about the jobs rather than seeking out ways to wrangle short term personal gains at the expense of others, then we'd have a much better game environment. This is unlikely to happen due to human nature, however. Tragedy of the commons and all that.

[Tint]

There's no reason whatsoever why occasionally stopping to cast a spell, moving to hit a positional, or remembering to hit a proc should be considered 'unmanageable'. If you think that one of these things are particularly 'difficult', that's just a reflection of your own personal weaknesses as a player, and you should work on practicing to rectify that deficiency rather than demanding to be compensated for simply doing your job.

There is also no reason why you should invest the time to get better and still have the potential to mess up when you can just play a physical ranged instead and get the same result.

[Leiron]

People always underestimate how mobile BLM actually is, between Triplecast, Swiftcast, 2 Sharpcasts, 2 Xenoglossy and at least 1 Ice Paradox, per minute, that is already 9 casts per minute that are instant cast (the actual is higher as an FYI) and this is ignoring Amplifier every 2 minutes, Fire 3 and Blizzard 3 have very short casts that allow for extra mobility there, you also have Aetherial Manipulation to instantly take you to someone else and Between the Lines to go back to your Ley Lines. So, when played right, BLM is very mobile, more mobile than many people give it credit for.
.

People also forget, however that these abilities are used to manage points where the BLM is forced to be mobile, thereby costing potential damage.
This is due to Fire IV and other spells being longer than the gcd.
So using leylines with your insta casts provides a DPS gain overall. The problem becomes that unlike some classes where you pop these abilities for an increase they are used more for utility to make up for mobile moments that melee does not have to necessarily factor due to instacasta.

Its why people view BLM needing an exception to the rule. Leylines being the only true dps buff because you are constantly sparing your insta cast abilities for the sake of mobility rather than a gain.

Granted I have no stake in it but I do wish to point out the instacasts ideally would be used for that damage in a less mobile fight.

[Mikey_R]

People also forget, however that these abilities are used to manage points where the BLM is forced to be mobile, thereby costing potential damage.

Whilst it is a potential loss i a vacuum, when you put it into practice, it isn't. If you have the choice of using Triplecast for Fire 4 and are forced to move later, or, not using it on Fire 4 and having to use it for movement later, which one are you going to pick? In the first instance, moving whilst not casting is going to cost you alot more potency than using the Triplecast for movement, which means the potential damage is higher to use it for movement when you can.

As a bit of additional info, you can work out the potency lost per second between one or the other. Fire 4 under AF4 is 496 potency (IIRC, AF is a 60% boost), so, comparing the potency between hardcast and swiftcast, you get the following:

Hard : ~177.14
Swift: 198.4

This gives a potency difference of ~21.26 potency per second per GCD. In the grand scheme of things, that isn't alot, not to say it isn't important. However, melee do also have concerns about uptime as well. If they cannot attack a boss, just with Auto Attacks, there is a potential loss of 143 potency, or about 62.26 potency per Auto Attack lost (SAM specifically), not to mention any potential losses from having to use a ranged attack, which pushes your rotation back by a GCD.

All this to say, yes, you can say, in a vacuum, one thing is higher potency than another, however, once you put these things into an actual fight scenario, you might find the damage potential between the 2 options shifts. This isn't as easy as just looking at that specific case in a specific part of the fight, you have to look at the areas around as well to determine, or at least try to make an educated guess, as to which option is better. This is the case with all jobs, some more than others.

Now, the conversation could continue about how easy a jobs rotation is compared to the amount of adaptability they need to consider but at the end of the day, these things aren't easily quantifiable. What is easy for one person is going to be hard for someone else, so, is it really a good metric to base DPS around? Should the theoretically easiest job have the lowest DPS, or should it be balanced around the slot it intends to fill? And that is the important point.

[Turtledeluxe]

I would say I agree that you cannot adjust BLM without also adjusting RDM. I still think ITT a lot of people are glossing over the bottom line: MCH and BLM as selfish dps are still a variety option compared to SAM (i.e I just want to play with a ranged tax) and I find that to be a problem worth looking at for for the sake of the game overall (and not necessarily with respect to TOP alone). Imo the goal should be to bring DPS within permissible ranges to one another BUT ALSO there should still be a damage tax on classes that bring strong utility to the fight.

Why do we play classes? For looks, gameplay, or role in the fight (i.e) what they bring to the fight. Classes with incredible defensive or healing ability simply should have adjusted DPS for that reason because otherwise what is the point of any class??? At their basic level tanks add survivability to the party (essential), healers heal (essential for most classes not all) and DPS are split between hybrid dps (mix n match utility) or pure DPS. These are basic things the team should be balancing..instead we are doing two minute burst window, melee ez mode fights, and I just don't find what I've played that fun lately to be honest. I'm mostly doing other things in the game personally. Maybe that's a me thing but it doesn't seem that way based on posts.

[Turtledeluxe]

There is also no reason why you should invest the time to get better and still have the potential to mess up when you can just play a physical ranged instead and get the same result.

This is also how I feel and I just think maybe it's not so much an issue of buffing or nerfing but just looking at r
fight design and job design overall and asking ourselves if this game is really fun to play in its current state-- maybe not fun period but is it AS fun as it could be? Imo no

[Turtledeluxe]

First 50 clears of savage has 65% SMN vs 20% BLM vs 15% RDM, ranged were 88%DNC vs 11%BRD (that was pre-mch-buff). Current TOP clears are 836 SMN vs 144 RDM vs 180 BLM; phys ranged see 550 MCH vs 509 DNC vs 97 BRD. High-end prog strongly biases AGAINST RDM and BRD despite the "utility".
.

So does this tell us that what I've been saying the whole time is correct...that people are probably playing Summoner because it has the easiest access to an optimal balance of damage and utility? Now this doesn't mean we need to buff BLM nor does it mean Summoner doesn't have its own problems I can't speak to..but surely we can acknowledge that one class is more optimized for the game as it is currently being designed. To be specific it's better optimized than BLM and RDM.