Delete rescue from the game.

[Tigore]

I think the point Renathras is getting at is we shouldn't be so snippy at every DPS for every mistake. I get the jadedness since some of the DPS are narcissistic but we should be careful not to become one too. We also need to let go of our hatred and stop making excuses after we have been rude to the good DPS. If they are deserving of respect (by default, that should temporarily be yes when you first meet them), apologize if the Rescue just didn't work they way we wanted it too. Make sure to communicate why if they still don't know what you saved them from.

As for suggestions for what I think could work for more damage buttons, I could make WHM an example. For starters, give us back Heavensward Aero 3, so we have an AoE DoT. If it needs a rename, that's okay. I also know the lily system is designed to make the old "Cure 2" and "Medica" casts DPS neutral with the Afflatus named spells, but we could still expand upon that. There are still times we could potentially sit on wasted lilies because nobody needs the heals yet. Basically add 2 lily spells that do single target and AoE damage. This could give us a chance to incorporate a Boulder Toss or Tidal Wave or Whirlpool spell. This might complete the WHM since we are now using Afflatus Misery more often as it is intended for easy content. This does have a danger of new players using up the lilies when they could have used it for healing, but I predict this to still be fine. We have Asylum, Thin Air with Medica 2, and Temperance wings to buff the healing spells. Assize is also there and can sometimes be planned to heal the party after an AoE hit too. As for suggestions to merge Cure 2 with Afflatus Solace and Medica with Afflatus Rapture, I think those are still good ideas. There is almost never a time you want to use the casted mana version over the instant free version. Once we are out of lilies, they revert back to Cure 2 and Medica respectively.

AST is probably in better shape since they revolve around the card buffs. Probably the best suggestions for them is an AoE DoT as well as a Royal Road cooldown return that could randomly extend the card buff or grant an AoE buff version to off targets. The redraw mechanic could be worked with Royal Road perhaps if we really need to guarantee which one?

SCH probably wants the DoT systems that were dropped from SMN. 2 - 3 DoTs with Tri-Disaster for instant placement and Bane as a possibility to spread them. The old Heavensward Shadow Flare is the frequent request for their AoE cooldown.

SGE is also in a pretty good spot. Probably the best I could suggest is a couple single target and AoE spells that use the Addergall resource. Similar reasons with WHM on their lily heals not being needed yet for low damage periods. An AoE DoT couldn't hurt as well although shielding the tank and using the broken shields on Toxicon is still pretty decent for AoE.

[Renathras]

Your old dislike towards raiders is showing and you're making sweeping generalisations again.

Very strange, considering I have no dislike of raiders to show.

Not to mention...did I even MENTION raiders in that statement? It seems I did not...

Ahem.

I do like your general posts, but please...don't do that.

I have no dislike towards raiders and never have. My only issue with raiding communities at all is when they think changes should be made to cater to their needs and ignore how they will affect anyone else. Besides which, I'm technically a raider, though definitely on the low end of the field (largely by choice)

Making downtime gameplay between that aoe every few minutes is the path of least resistance. It's the easiest way to fix the problem

So I've heard...which doesn't change at all the truth of what I said. The Devs have already indicated by their actions (going in the exact opposite direction) they don't want to do that. We've seen them increase healing requirements more than we've seen them increase Healer DPS complexity, so it's odd to me the insistence that the former they'll never do (when they've already done it) and the latter they'll do (when they've moved the exact opposite direction of it)

Though I am wondering if this is a netcode issue more than anything. The delays make (high pressure) triage less doable.

I call you out over this repeatedly because you refuse to see the simple problem with this.

No, I disagree with your analysis and appraisal of the Devs intentions and actions.

I think the issue is more the insistence that even casual content needs to have Savage level of healing checks to be "fun" or "engaging".

/sigh

That's probably some hyperbole, so let me be fair: That it needs to be significant enough that a beginner Healer using GCDs exclusively to heal it will be unable to do so or feel like they cannot do so. Savage level healing right now CAN (arguably, the first bosses, anyway) be done that way, as can Extremes. It's dumb to, but you COULD heal Extremes just using GCD heals (provided you can get the casts off) if you wanted to. No one does it because it's a bad idea and you'd probably fail the Enrages if your party isn't very good.

But when it comes to 4 mans, this is how people healed in ARR and HW (and led to the Cleric Stance schism). It was entirely possible and wasn't too high pressure or impossible to do. If you WEREN'T trying to juggle damage alongside it, it was entirely possible to heal anything with GCDs.

So if casual dungeons/trials were made where they had MORE CONSISTENT damage which necessitated MORE OFTEN heals, but the healing was well within comfortable GCD healing capability, this wouldn't "scare off" new Healers or be impossible for "Little Timmy" resulting in him being flamed and leaving the game. That's hyperbole and not at all what would be the result.

.

But none of this actually counters my point: If people "just want to heal", then they're making all the wrong arguments. And as I said, "Sylphie" wouldn't be an insult here if that were truly the case.

And punish people that are actually learning to play and make guenine mistakes.

I'm a bit confused. Are we talking about increasing the healing requirements in P9S, TOP, or Sashtasha normal?

I think the point Renathras is getting at is we shouldn't be so snippy at every DPS for every mistake.

Among other things, but yes.

My one issue with your Lily damage spender is that it creates the Energy Drain situation. One of the most common complaints in both the long form survey and Ty's survey of SCH is players feeling penalized for using Sacred Soil, Indom, or Excogitation because they "felt" wrong doing it since they "knew" they "should" be using Energy Drain instead. It's also one of the most common praises for SGE as being "a better SCH" that it doesn't have its damage abilities fighting its healing abilities over resources.

It's one of those things that sounds good on paper until people feel bad for using Solace/Rapture because "Well, I could be doing more damage..." Granted, it might not be AS big a problem because WHM doesn't have Lily spenders like Soil or Excog that are really nice abilities and a lot of Healers find them enjoyable to use (Healers who actually enjoy healing and neat healing abilities instead of optimizing for damage), but they feel like they're playing wrong to do it. So it makes it less fun for players since they have a choice of doing the "correct" but less fun Energy Drain or doing the "wrong" but thing they want to actually do AF healing spenders.

I feel like the better answer would be to give WHM a mitigation, regen, or barrier Lily spender instead. Something that will always be useful even if people are at full health - putting a regen or barrier on the main Tank is always going to do you at least some good, and a lesser individual or party mitigation can be used intelligently to be effective even when damage is low or only on a Tank.

And I HIGHLY disagree to Cure 2/Solace Medica/Rapture being merged that way. As I've said before, there are times I use the hardcast version because I'm about to need more healing while also needing movement. Since I have the option, I can use the cast version first and save the instant for movement. This is intelligent use of abilities being rewarded. But if they're merged, the player is robbed of this agency and choice. Now, there IS a solution, and it would be to treat Lilies like Umbral Hearts on BLM (I think I said this in the survey Ty posted in general, but I'll repeat it here). Like how BLM can cast Flare with or without Umbral Hearts, but doing it with an Umbral Heart consumes the heart and cuts Flare's MP cost by 1/3rd, I feel like WHM could use that here. Basically, when you unlock Solace/Rapture, you get a trait that makes Cure 2/Medica (respectively) instant cast but still have their MP cost. The MP cost is negated when a Lily is active, consuming the Lily and generating 1/3rd Blood Lily.

While this takes away a bit of the nuance of choosing a hardcast to save an instant for movement, if it's always instant, then that isn't relevant and the player isn't punished even as they lose the choice and skill expression (vs being punished if Lily consumption isn't a choice). This would also make WHM a bit more mobile, which isn't a bad thing since that has also often been requested.

Another alternative would be to just have a "Afflatus" ability like SGE's Eukrsia. That way you could use it as a modifier and retain ALL the utility. Activating it would have a 1.0 sec GCD, make Media into Affltus Rapture, Cure 2 into Afflatus Solace, and maybe Holy into Afflatus Misery (if Blood Lily is fully nourished) if we want to get some extra mileage out of the ability. This would also allow Afflatus versions of Regen or Medica 2 to be added in the future, all for the price of a single button. I'm not sure I'm a fan of this one, but it WOULD get rid of the stupid button bloat. Diagnosis and Prognosis on SGE don't feel like wasted button spaces because you actually USE THEM with Eukrasia (even if you'd use them MORE if Toxicon was damage neutral...but you still wouldn't spam them even then because it would be MP inefficient vs Dosis casts)

So having a Trait at 30 to upgrade Cure 1 into Cure 2 (lowering Cure 2's MP cost to 500 and cast time to 1.5 sec), and then at 52 Trait to make Cure 2 instant cast and make it cost no MP when you have a Lily, Trait at 76 to do the same thing with Medica 1 to make it instant cast and have 0 MP cost when you have a Lily. That would allow Solace/Rapture to be removed that way (like Fell Cleave, it would have the alternate form/animation when the Lily was used to give a bit more visual spice). I'm not instantly a fan of the Eukrasia toggle, but if that WAS added to WHM, you'd have Cure 2 (Solace) and Medica (Rapture) pulling double duty for hotbar efficiency right off the bat, with some potential Afflatus versions of Regen, Medica 2, and Cure 3 in the future, if desired, as well as getting some single-target use out of the Holy button. Honestly, a WHM Eukrasia would free up several potential hotbar spaces for button additions (like Aero 3) and allow the Job to have a future avenue of growth down that line...though it might feel too samey to some people with SGE (kinda silly since SGE doesn't actually use the button THAT much considering it tries to avoid GCD heals...)

I am fine with Aero 3 being readded, though. Long as it's not a damage gain over Glare for single target, it won't change anything much other than giving an extra button to push before arriving at the second pack (Dia while running with the Tank, Swiftcast Aero 3 on the full group, Presence of Mind, Holyspam), so that's no big deal there. And I STILL want Water as a level 15 AOE (Holy without the stun) that upgrades to Holy at level 45.

.

AST I won't speak to since I really hate playing AST and honestly don't care what they do with it as long as it makes some AST players happier (contrary to some belief, I do want people to be happy and enjoy the game. )

SCH I've kind of given up on. I love SCH as it exists now, but if the masses want the awful SB DoT mage (awful to me - I did not enjoy it then, even though I did play it when the other party Healer only had WHM leveled), then so be it. I'll just drop it and leave it to them.

Agree that SGE is in a good spot. My biggest issues with it are that Toxicon feels bad to use because it isn't damage neutral using it with GCD shields, which also makes GCD shields feel bad to use. Making Toxicon damage neutral would fix that problem. Adding a Eukrasian Dyskrasia (as silly as that sounds if you know the definitions of those prefixes) to be an AOE DoT would be fine as long as, again, it's not a damage gain over Dosis in single target. I HIGHLY disagree with Addersgall spenders for damage - again, this is the thing people love about SGE and hate about SCH in all the responses that talked about the two. I didn't see a single long-form or Ty survey result for SGE asking for Addersgall damage spenders. Addersgall largely DOESN'T have that issue (unlike Lilies) because it DOES have "useful spending" even when no immediate haling is needed thanks to Taurochole and Kerachole having decent durations and almost always doing something useful for the party. Highly highly HIGHLY disagree with Addersgall spenders. Especially when Addersting exists right there.

One solution might be to allow them to be converted (e.g. Eukrasia Toxicon consuming Addersgall instead), but I feel like that's still the same thing and a bad idea. Not to mention might cause technical problems with using the ability (e.g. you have one Addersting up and no Addersgall, hitting Eukrasia wouldn't allow you to cast Toxicon at all until you consume the Eukrasia on something else). Maybe if there was a shortish CD (40 or 60 sec or something) that converted an Addersgall into an Addersting, as this would still allow people to use them on healing abilities without feeling bad while allowing unused ones to be converted...though I still think that's too close to the same problem.

I honestly feel like SGE is in a great place right now and Toxicon being damage neutral is the only big change. Maybe have Rhizomata generate both 1 Addersgall and 1 Addersting could be nice as well. And another often asked for change is making some kind of party healing with Kardia. A lot of people think having Zoe, Krasis, and Soteria are kind of redundant, so having one do something like make Kardia radiate a 20y radius heal from the SGE (like casting Prognosis, just without you being a bad) would be useful. Honestly, SGE has too much oGCD healing as it is, but using Kardia for that would be intelligent and actually make SGE more what it should be. Personally I'd also prefer a 1-2-3 damage rotation than a DoT-1-1-1-..., but that's probably just me. For some reason people love stupid DoTs (I hate DoTs) better than rotations, so it's whatever.

SGE can stay the same, just make Soteria or Krasis have the effect of an AOE Kardia instead, make Toxicon damage neutral, and make Rhizomata generate an Addersting in addition to an Adderstgall.

Edit: OH! Almost forgot - and make Plegma 20y or 25y range. Many of the complaints about SGE were over that, with most people describing it as "weird", "strange", or "annoying". I didn't see a lot of people really LIKE it being a near-melee range ability. I actually didn't see any, though I may have missed someone praising it in there somewhere. I know some people will say it's a gigabrain skill expression having 6y, but just no. That's like the people insisting Continuation on GNB needed to be hyper-melee and not have the 3y range on it. It just is discongruous with the rest of the kit for no good reason other than just to be so. :ENDEDIT

[Tigore]

There are several ways we could approach modifying the healer kits. I was putting together some quick solutions that could be passed along for a survey. The goal I was going at was working with the current systems we have and adding to them. Our toolbars are getting full, so we need to be mindful of that too. Merging 2 buttons doing similar things is a method to free up a button slot. The thought of lilies having a DPS option did occur to me on some thoughts that always feels like the best option since killing the enemy faster with more DPS has most often been the best utility. At that point, we may have to have a vote if the players are alright sitting on Lilies / Addersgall or if they wish to have a way to use them differently when no healing is needed. Another avenue to explore is that all the healers are ranged at this point. If we look to Warcraft, we have a few potential melee healers there with Paladin, Druid and Monk. Having a combo system for one healer could be interesting and the healer tends to need to hover close to that melee range anyway so their 30 yard centered AoE heals get everyone.

As for the AST class you didn't comment much on, I usually see players complain they want the old cards back. We kind of don't have TP anymore though, so "The Spire" would need something new like a movement speed boost if we go down that avenue. Maybe even some way to allow casting while moving too. At the very least, I would like to see Royal Road come back to some capacity, so we can get those AoE card buffs or maybe an extended version on our selfish DPS bursting the hell out of an enemy.

An additional thing I would like on SCH would be a fix on Dissipation. For the most part, it just feels like an extra Aetherflow cooldown with restrictions on a 3 minute cooldown. That one players suggested that the increase in healing magic potency to be extended to all oGCD ones too rather than just Adloquium and Succor only ... well Physick too, but that one rarely gets used being the "cure" spell for SCH. Why on Etheirys does it not buff oGCDs when it grants you 3 Aether for oGCD heals? Also having the fairy still being there with us will help a lot too.

The AoE Kardia effect from Soteria and Rhizomata granting both 1 Addersgall and Addersting I agree with. I do use the latter cooldown since Taurochole and Kerachole are important for damage reduction on the tank. The DPS sometimes need that Druochole for mistakes that have occurred after all. The first Soteria cooldown does not feel very impactful though and it would have been a much better choice to use Haima or Panhaima on the tank.

WHM I think does have a robust kit that is simple with its effectiveness. Being able to spam stun enemies is really strong and works very well paired with Regen, Medica 2 and / or Asylum. Most cases, I notice the players wanting to be able to use the Stone, Water and Air elements. We kind of drifted away from that with having Dia and Glare creating a light only damage healer.

[Sebazy]

So I've heard...which doesn't change at all the truth of what I said. The Devs have already indicated by their actions (going in the exact opposite direction) they don't want to do that. We've seen them increase healing requirements more than we've seen them increase Healer DPS complexity, so it's odd to me the insistence that the former they'll never do (when they've already done it) and the latter they'll do (when they've moved the exact opposite direction of it)

Though I am wondering if this is a netcode issue more than anything. The delays make (high pressure) triage less doable.

In Savage sure. In extreme? Eh not really, it's not that BarbEX and RubiEX hit especially hard, more that the first two primals just deal minimal damage which is a trend in itself.

I don't think it's fair to pin their hesitance on net code and latency worries given how tight some mechanics have historically been for timing such as Throttle.

No, I disagree with your analysis and appraisal of the Devs intentions and actions.

I think the issue is more the insistence that even casual content needs to have Savage level of healing checks to be "fun" or "engaging".

/sigh

That's probably some hyperbole, so let me be fair: That it needs to be significant enough that a beginner Healer using GCDs exclusively to heal it will be unable to do so or feel like they cannot do so. Savage level healing right now CAN (arguably, the first bosses, anyway) be done that way, as can Extremes. It's dumb to, but you COULD heal Extremes just using GCD heals (provided you can get the casts off) if you wanted to. No one does it because it's a bad idea and you'd probably fail the Enrages if your party isn't very good.

And yet I literally dropped math explaining why I worked to the numbers I did, your numbers BTW. Our healing kits are overblown to the extent where it takes savage levels of incoming damage to actually pressure us into really wanting to learn how to use them. You can easily heal Extremes with GCD heals no problem at all (save swiftcast for knuckle drum since I know that's what you're referring to) and no, it's not going to push you into enrage. People dieing will push you into enrage. You realise Rubicante has an enrage that's like 11 minutes right? Without deaths an average PF group is killing in in ~9 minutes.

But when it comes to 4 mans, this is how people healed in ARR and HW (and led to the Cleric Stance schism). It was entirely possible and wasn't too high pressure or impossible to do. If you WEREN'T trying to juggle damage alongside it, it was entirely possible to heal anything with GCDs.

So if casual dungeons/trials were made where they had MORE CONSISTENT damage which necessitated MORE OFTEN heals, but the healing was well within comfortable GCD healing capability, this wouldn't "scare off" new Healers or be impossible for "Little Timmy" resulting in him being flamed and leaving the game. That's hyperbole and not at all what would be the result.

Uh, there were three factors that made dungeons different to what they are now:

Gating or a lack of, you weren't always hard limited to 2 packs of mobs pre pull.

Cleric Stance spicing things up

Not only did you have far less oGCD healing capability back then, but you also had to contend with your heals having a cast time across the board.

ARR dungeons weren't more involving because of additional damage, they were involving because doing damage carried multiple elements of risk that all added to compound each other. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if there's one thing even less likely to appear in the game than a comprehensive healer DPS kit rethink or a noticeable increase in healing requirements for casual content, it's the return of cleric stance and the removal of swathes of our insta cast and oGCD healing. Fair? So with that in mind, how else do you propose to make 4 man dungeons more engaging? Set pre nerf Pharos Sirus as the baseline and unleash the Sudos of war?

[ForsakenRoe]

ARR dungeons weren't more involving because of additional damage, they were involving because doing damage carried multiple elements of risk that all added to compound each other. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if there's one thing even less likely to appear in the game than a comprehensive healer DPS kit rethink or a noticeable increase in healing requirements for casual content, it's the return of cleric stance and the removal of swathes of our insta cast and oGCD healing. Fair? So with that in mind, how else do you propose to make 4 man dungeons more engaging? Set pre nerf Pharos Sirus as the baseline and unleash the Sudos of war?

Only if we can bring back pre-nerf Amdapor Keep, with the bees that were so hard for people to manage to kill fast enough they'd use limit break on them

[Sebazy]

Only if we can bring back pre-nerf Amdapor Keep, with the bees that were so hard for people to manage to kill fast enough they'd use limit break on them

2.0 AK was such a good dungeon on so many different levels++

[RyuDragnier]

Only if we can bring back pre-nerf Amdapor Keep, with the bees that were so hard for people to manage to kill fast enough they'd use limit break on them

Pour one out for that hive, they were the greatest pug destroyers and made Demon Wall a fun fight.

[UkcsAlias]

Gating or a lack of, you weren't always hard limited to 2 packs of mobs pre pull.

Which has been caused by a side issue: Lack of damage from mobs.

If mobs would deal significantly more damage, it can deter a tank from pulling more, knowing that if he does it anyway, its a wipe. Sure, with proper coordination, then tank and healer might still find ways to w2w. But the moment this isnt default, it shows a lot better balance. And this is why having more packs is welcome: it makes the pulling part less static (as many tanks by default will pull 2 packs). Just imagine 5 packs where the 3rd and 4th are very hard hitting. The tank can decide to go for many patterns (1+2,3+4,5 or 1+2+3,4+5 or 1+2,3,4+5), and this freedom also creates variety. But this only works if the enemies do enough damage. Otherwise even if its 5 packs, they will all still be pulled at once. And if this works, gating isnt needed because the gating is already applied by the risk of wipes.