An ideal overworld zone

[Jojoya]

Thanks Ion, no thanks.

I honestly don't think that was Ion. I didn't think it was him at the time of the interview (considering Tom Chilton was still Game Director at that point) and I still don't think it was him. Ion was just acting as the mouthpiece for the dev team, just as Ghostcrawler did when he was still working for Blizzard.

I think that was Alex Afrasiabi, who was the Creator Director and the one pushing no flying in all the pre-WoD interviews. And I doubt I need to say any more about that individual to those who have been following Blizzard drama in recent years. Coincidence that flying stopped getting demonized after his suspension then departure? I don't think so.

I understand why some players prefer a dangerous world filled with creatures they are forced to fight (or at least find creative ways to avoid). But that's not the design direction the developers are taking with the game. If someone really wants to be on the ground, they have the option to do it. I did it myself on occasion in WoW when I had the time to spare and the interest to do so. I'd go RP walking up and down the length of the continents or even from one continent to another.

I'm not interested in forcing others to have to play the way I want to play, though. I want players to have options to choose from so they can create the best experience for themselves.

Not sure how the master crafter comes into play here.

The majority of the materials a crafter uses are sourced from the open world (or can be). That can even include the materials purchased with tomestones. Buying relic weapons is not the only reason players do hunts for tomestones. Gemstones make it easier to get the items that are creature drops.

Crafters who prefer to be self-sufficient as much as possible when it comes to obtaining materials are spending a lot of time in the open world.

[Ath192]

I honestly don't think that was Ion. I didn't think it was him at the time of the interview (considering Tom Chilton was still Game Director at that point) and I still don't think it was him. Ion was just acting as the mouthpiece for the dev team, just as Ghostcrawler did when he was still working for Blizzard.

I think that was Alex Afrasiabi, who was the Creator Director and the one pushing no flying in all the pre-WoD interviews. And I doubt I need to say any more about that individual to those who have been following Blizzard drama in recent years. Coincidence that flying stopped getting demonized after his suspension then departure? I don't think so.

I understand why some players prefer a dangerous world filled with creatures they are forced to fight (or at least find creative ways to avoid). But that's not the design direction the developers are taking with the game. If someone really wants to be on the ground, they have the option to do it. I did it myself on occasion in WoW when I had the time to spare and the interest to do so. I'd go RP walking up and down the length of the continents or even from one continent to another.

I'm not interested in forcing others to have to play the way I want to play, though. I want players to have options to choose from so they can create the best experience for themselves.


The majority of the materials a crafter uses are sourced from the open world (or can be). That can even include the materials purchased with tomestones. Buying relic weapons is not the only reason players do hunts for tomestones. Gemstones make it easier to get the items that are creature drops.

Crafters who prefer to be self-sufficient as much as possible when it comes to obtaining materials are spending a lot of time in the open world.

Yeah gathering makes more sense.

The problem is that being on the ground and having an engaging overworld are not the same thing. So being on the ground does nothing if the above topics aren’t addressed as a means to have an engaging experience in the environment.

Moreover I am for player choice most of the time but there is no choice here. There are no zones in the overworld like this for us that provide the same satisfaction the current brain dead zones provide for y’all. So in essence I feel like the argument being made here is more let’s deny you this and it’s one or the other, instead of allowing for player choice and providing those zones for players that do seek danger and adventure. You will see none of my examples imply mandatory things.

Wouldn’t a compromise better suit everyone? Where we can have our off the beaten path dangerous zones and our sense of exploration and adventure without getting hammered about it?

[Jojoya]

Yeah gathering makes more sense.

The problem is that being on the ground and having an engaging overworld are not the same thing. So being on the ground does nothing if the above topics aren’t addressed as a means to have an engaging experience in the environment.

Moreover I am for player choice most of the time but there is no choice here. There are no zones in the overworld like this for us that provide the same satisfaction the current brain dead zones provide for y’all. So in essence I feel like the argument being made here is more let’s deny you this and it’s one or the other, instead of allowing for player choice and providing those zones for players that do seek danger and adventure. You will see none of my examples imply mandatory things.

Wouldn’t a compromise better suit everyone? Where we can have our off the beaten path dangerous zones and our sense of exploration and adventure without getting hammered about it?

Isn't that what the exploratory zones for Eureka and Bozja essentially were? They still exist. If you go into them, you still get level synced so they remain dangerous barring use of any overpowered Lost Actions you have available.

The problem is how to keep the content in such areas engaging enough to keep players doing it for the long run. The current open world zones have the benefit of new characters going through MSQ, gatherers still needing to collect the materials crafters want, treasure maps still dropping loot that at a minimum can be converted to gil if not use for better purposes, etc.

What's getting players to go back into Eureka and Bozja once their relics are completed?

You know. I wonder if there could be a system like the Fetes in Ishgard for overworld zones. And after the server activities are done we unlock some sort of buff, new excavation or settlement, or see some benefit in the cities in regards to the zones.

The problem with the game though is that it’s not a living world. Zones are stuck in time depending on what MSQ function they served and are dead after that.

I think the only solution I’ve been able to think is that they do to them what they did to the Doman Enclave. That way the zones can continue to live on with the characters instead of being stuck in the past. The quests and NPCs could move and and appear and disappear as well.

But if you didn’t do a quest and the NPC is now gone, like say one a refugee at little Ala Mhigo used to give but now that it’s a Flames outpost because the refugees went back, you could always NG+ into the time frame when they were around and complete the quests. Giving the NG + feature further utility.

It’s kind of ambitious but it would be a way to move the world forward.

You can't have an effective living world in a MMORPG where developers want friends and family to encourage more friends and family to come play.

"What are you doing?" "Oh, I'm talking to a NPC you can't see because I'm father in the story/had my character take a different path than the one you chose".

You end up in a cycle of "what are you seeing because I can't see the same thing" and that's not a good game experience.

It's great for a game where you're basically intended to play solo but not for a game where you're intended to play with others. I know some are alarmed at the solo player elements that have been added to FFXIV but we're still intended to play with others. That's why Duty Support is going to take about twice as long to complete a dungeon than doing it as part of a player group will. That's why the amount of loot from a dungeon will end up less if you're doing it solo.

Strangely, the place where the game fails the most to be multiplayer in the thing that it tends to get the most praise for - the story. They're getting better about it now that we have Azem's crystal but it's still not accounting for our friends that are already at our sides in all those cutscenes. Will they ever get to the point where the non-duty cutscenes can acknowledge our friends by solo different version based on whether we're solo or in a party? We can only hope.

[Ath192]

Isn't that what the exploratory zones for Eureka and Bozja essentially were? They still exist. If you go into them, you still get level synced so they remain dangerous barring use of any overpowered Lost Actions you have available.

The problem is how to keep the content in such areas engaging enough to keep players doing it for the long run. The current open world zones have the benefit of new characters going through MSQ, gatherers still needing to collect the materials crafters want, treasure maps still dropping loot that at a minimum can be converted to gil if not use for better purposes, etc.

What's getting players to go back into Eureka and Bozja once their relics are completed?


You can't have an effective living world in a MMORPG where developers want friends and family to encourage more friends and family to come play.

"What are you doing?" "Oh, I'm talking to a NPC you can't see because I'm father in the story/had my character take a different path than the one you chose".

You end up in a cycle of "what are you seeing because I can't see the same thing" and that's not a good game experience.

It's great for a game where you're basically intended to play solo but not for a game where you're intended to play with others. I know some are alarmed at the solo player elements that have been added to FFXIV but we're still intended to play with others. That's why Duty Support is going to take about twice as long to complete a dungeon than doing it as part of a player group will. That's why the amount of loot from a dungeon will end up less if you're doing it solo.

Strangely, the place where the game fails the most to be multiplayer in the thing that it tends to get the most praise for - the story. They're getting better about it now that we have Azem's crystal but it's still not accounting for our friends that are already at our sides in all those cutscenes. Will they ever get to the point where the non-duty cutscenes can acknowledge our friends by solo different version based on whether we're solo or in a party? We can only hope.

mmm yeah, although most mobs are still uninteresting in their attacks unlike the DD ones. I just don't consider those part of the overworld though. They are instances. That may be a me issue but they feel so disconnected.

You can't have an effective living world in a MMORPG where developers want friends and family to encourage more friends and family to come play.

"What are you doing?" "Oh, I'm talking to a NPC you can't see because I'm father in the story/had my character take a different path than the one you chose".

You end up in a cycle of "what are you seeing because I can't see the same thing" and that's not a good game experience.

It's great for a game where you're basically intended to play solo but not for a game where you're intended to play with others. I know some are alarmed at the solo player elements that have been added to FFXIV but we're still intended to play with others.

I have to disagree here. This game has noone following people around doing the MSQ. it is in fact a solo experience unless you queue for an instance together, in which case they would remain unaffected. So this is not going to happen on a regular basis to be a reason not to do these things. End game wise though, everyone would be at parity and multiplayer could thrive. So this isn't a flaw in this plan.

I started this game with friends, lots of them, because I was under the impression you would need to be social in the MMO, but when we found out how it plays eventually we all fell out of sync and continued the story on our own. While we were still together though, we were all at the same level and wouldve been seeing and discussing the things in our timeline so to speak. In the rare occasion someone has to go back to the past the NG+ would enable that for them.

This game actively discourages playing together with friends. Look at CC design, and how isolating the MSQ can be. Only instances are places where you can really group up and have a mediocre experience since everything is so bland coop wise. I.E. dungeons are so straight forward you wouldn't have fun with friends figuring them out. Yall would just walk together.

This wouldn't happen often, maybe once per expansion where the world advances. So we'd be looking at a layered world, like a cake. While not perfect, there's only so long you can hold out leaving Ala Mhigans stranded for no reason in the desert when their nation has been freed and random castrums operating as "independent settlements" because of events that happen in Endwalker.

To me the alternative is worse. where we walk in a non-sensical world where people in Northern Thanalan are still holding the line against the people in the praetorium.

[VelKallor]

Ath192

Combat retainers are DIRECTLY tied to crafting, so what you suggest would CRIPPLE the entire process. MANUALLY attacking mobs for skins would take a HELL of a lot longer to get enough for ONE recipe, as the droprates are obscenely small.

When you need upwards of sixty or more leather to get enough scrip for crafting mats, a drop of maybe one skin or none from mobs will AGAIN, artificially expand gametime for no other reason than to make everything take longer.

Again: all I am seeing here is ways to make getting things done take longer, which is an OUT MODED and primitive gameplay design. The days of players taking hours to depopulate an entire zone and then wait for them to respawn is backwards and out of date.

Its 2004 design. Out of date. Archaic. Primitive by todays standards.

Its wasting time that could be spent doing other things.

This is 2023.

Games are made to respect players time, not to use up hours on a useless and pointless grind.

[Ath192]

Ath192

Combat retainers are DIRECTLY tied to crafting, so what you suggest would CRIPPLE the entire process. MANUALLY attacking mobs for skins would take a HELL of a lot longer to get enough for ONE recipe, as the droprates are obscenely small.

When you need upwards of sixty or more leather to get enough scrip for crafting mats, a drop of maybe one skin or none from mobs will AGAIN, artificially expand gametime for no other reason than to make everything take longer.

Again: all I am seeing here is ways to make getting things done take longer, which is an OUT MODED and primitive gameplay design. The days of players taking hours to depopulate an entire zone and then wait for them to respawn is backwards and out of date.

Its 2004 design. Out of date. Archaic. Primitive by todays standards.

Its wasting time that could be spent doing other things.

This is 2023.

Games are made to respect players time, not to use up hours on a useless and pointless grind.

I see my name on the top of your post but I’m not exactly sure why you are preaching to me about retainers. Could you perhaps highlight a quote or something?

I don’t have a strong opinion on that either way.

[RitsukoSonoda]

Ath192
Games are made to respect players time, not to use up hours on a useless and pointless grind.

Counter argument:

Games are meant to stimulate brain activity through entertainment. Not encourage people to be lazy and stupid by handing everything to them and then giving them an award for being given things they made no effort getting. If you hate your braincells that much there's all kinds of reality TV you can watch.

Also technically playing a game is essentially wasting time since there's numerous other productive things you could be doing during that time instead. Crafting systems in MMO's are a time waster by design intended to generate in game currency on the side.

The problem is the younger generation of gamers have been denied opportunities of growth by game devs filling titles with crutches.

Push button to make interactable items and enemies glow even when hidden behind cover and objects.

Paint special boxes or ledges bright colors so players immediately see where they can climb terrain.

Automatically mark everything on the map so player can ignore all NPC dialogue or cutscenes and just progress story by following the dots.

Place excessive fast travel points throughout the world so players blink around the world instead of experiencing it.

Pop ups that stop the game to tell you how to defeat an enemy right as you engage said enemy the first time.

The list goes on.

[Kyrj]

Ath192

Combat retainers are DIRECTLY tied to crafting, so what you suggest would CRIPPLE the entire process. MANUALLY attacking mobs for skins would take a HELL of a lot longer to get enough for ONE recipe, as the droprates are obscenely small.

When you need upwards of sixty or more leather to get enough scrip for crafting mats, a drop of maybe one skin or none from mobs will AGAIN, artificially expand gametime for no other reason than to make everything take longer.

Again: all I am seeing here is ways to make getting things done take longer, which is an OUT MODED and primitive gameplay design. The days of players taking hours to depopulate an entire zone and then wait for them to respawn is backwards and out of date.

Its 2004 design. Out of date. Archaic. Primitive by todays standards.

Its wasting time that could be spent doing other things.

This is 2023.

Games are made to respect players time, not to use up hours on a useless and pointless grind.

Then why aren't retainer ventures instant? Also you need to calm down.

[VelKallor]

Sorry the retainer one was by Kyrj.

Games are meant to stimulate brain activity through entertainment. Not encourage people to be lazy and stupid by handing everything to them

No one is "handed everything". Please. Not this meme again.

And then giving them an award for being given things they made no effort getting

Name me one example.

Place excessive fast travel points throughout the world so players blink around the world instead of experiencing it.

Lets just ignore the fact you have to travel there first to activate the waypoint or crystal, shall we?

Crafting systems in MMO's are a time waster by design intended to generate in game currency on the side.

..and the fact that crafting is used to make gear, weapons, glamours, craft mats, collectibles......lets just forget that as well. Seriously.

The problem is the younger generation of gamers have been denied opportunities of growth by game devs filling titles with crutche

Growth? Or just not having to deal with old and outmoded gameplay facets that were seen as worthless over the last few decades? The average gamer in 2023 is in their mid 30's, with a low BS tolerance..for obvious reasons.

[Genz]

It starts with no flying. Any obstacle becomes useless with flying, so the developers stop bothering, and we end up with the current trash quests where clicking 2 npc feels already too much work.

(maybe, maybe, they're experimenting with the "no fly zone" in Labyrinthos/Island sanctuary, so we could still fly for fast travel in the useless parts of the maps, and no fly for the parts of the maps with interesting things to do)

An actuala deeper character progression system is welcome too, to create a bigger possibility space, and also a broader range of rewards.