FFXIV Job Design Feedback

[ForsakenRoe]

Right, but we don't have three parties here. We have four parties here. So the example would be one wanting to tuition rates to increase, one wanting to keep them as they are, one wanting them to be cut, and one wanting them abolished. That was my point, we'd have to ask the question with ONLY three options before we could look at them as only three options.

Right, but 'no change' means 'no change', so it'd be more like them being 'rates stay as is' as one end of the scale, and then the rest of the scale being 'rates cut by 30%', 'rates cut by 60%' and 'the government actually pays the students a grant to go to uni, and it also doesn't have fees at all'. I don't see how 'Mini rework' can equate to 'the fees stay exactly as is' because nothing is getting reworked in that example.

As for what constitutes a Mini or Major rework, that's down to each person. As I've said before, I consider 'no' to be the level of small changes you see in an expansion update, such as how WHM got a new Glare rank, all of it's heals got bumped in potency by a trait, Aquaveil and Lilybell. 'Aero 3 returns and call it a day' is in that territory if it is the only change that occurs. Mini rework to me means NIN GCD Mudras, it's not a massive thing that completely flips the gameplay of the class, but it was a noticeable change, and it also made TCJ feel 'not bloody awful' in the same patch. What I've listed, minus one point (eg, without the 'do damage charge gauge' and associated heal) would be what I'd consider to fall in the center of Mini. That heal having a new gauge element attached is what drags the list up towards Major (but not completely into), as it'd require a whole new graphical element to be made. Now, if these changes all made it in, alongside getting a bunch of new stuff for the expansion at the same time, then yeh I can see why it'd start to be considered a Major rework. So I'd take out some of them to be implemented at a later date (in the X.1 patch most likely), and I'd nominate the gauge and it's associated heal because they're the ones that'd take the most work, so delaying just those allows for the rest to more easily be done in time for X.0 release

Major is SHB DRK, removing Dark Arts and replacing it with Edge/Flood, removing MP management almost entirely (now it's just 'use if about to overcap, save for burst), changing TBN break bonus from 'gives blood' to 'gives a proc that allows a free Edge', removing Blood Weapon's haste, changing Delirium from 'extend BW duration' to 'grants X uses of Bloodspiller' to mirror WAR. That's quite a list of changes, and so it goes in 'Major'

And then there's Total Overhaul. And I'd consider very few of these to have occurred so far in the game, most stuff falls into Major. 2.1 WAR, 4.0 BRD (removal of the cast times), 5.0 MCH (adding the whole multitool thing, removing the permanent-turret and the raidbuff from hypercharge), and 6.0 SMN (the best example of 'totally overhauling a class'). Now, you might have different views on what constitutes each category and that's fine, Ty probably could have done with putting examples on the question like 'How much does this class need a rework? No rework refers to 'just the usual expansion updates', Mini refers to change on the scale of (whatever change that is small), Major refers to change on the scale of(whatever change is kinda big), and Total Overhaul refers to change on the scale of (probably 6.0 SMN as the example)

As for Cleric, fine, name it Seraph Strike, problem solved. And if FOF/Req is an issue, there's solutions. Like have Confiteor apply Req's effect and remove Req entirely (the burst window already starts with FOF anyway), or better yet, just delete Req and have Conf combo do it's 'Req damage' naturally, since Confiteor is a 60s CD it's gated off anyway. Also, again, NIN has Trick at 1min for selfbuff and Mug at 2 for raidbuffing. We don't hear for calls for Trick to be removed because it's so synonymous with NIN (and it'd leave the job with literally zero reason to use Suiton), so I don't see why having a 1min and a 2min buff is such an issue for WHM. You also have to remember, I think 4.1 WAR was peak tank design, and that had a 2min big burst (IR Berserk) and a smaller 1 min burst (just Berserk), so maybe I'm just more attuned to the idea

Compiled SAM threads regarding Kaiten removal and wanting it back -> " Click Here " <- it's a crap ton. I stopped compiling at like idk 155 threads? give or take. And the video references as well from multiple creators. I just started losing count. SAM is still fun, but many do still want it back.

I find it hilarious and sad in equal measure that we have so many people, with so many posts, giving their view that Kaiten's removal was not good, and now this survey has so many responses saying 'extra info: yeh uhh kaiten removal was dumb pls bring back'. And yet SE won't listen. Maybe everyone has to drop the job and it'll get changed, like the old BowMage issue.

[CelestiCer]

I find it hilarious and sad in equal measure that we have so many people, with so many posts, giving their view that Kaiten's removal was not good, and now this survey has so many responses saying 'extra info: yeh uhh kaiten removal was dumb pls bring back'. And yet SE won't listen. Maybe everyone has to drop the job and it'll get changed, like the old BowMage issue.

True. Square does not listen to Player-Feedback. We all know the phrases by now.

• We are sorry for the inconvenience...
• Give it a try...
• Hope you like it...
• Give us your feedback...

They'll refer you to the forums where you get ignored.

WHM wanting more then just Glare? Lol. MCH identity? pff. RDM can die with their lack of self-mits you got to keep your utility tax, fun. Everything's an AoE circle that's all we can handle after all. Screw your Gameplay, your Dots, your Pets and your Kaiten it's way easier on the devs this way/ for balancing reasons. Saw those reworks we did? DRG's and AST's? " Look forward to it ". /s

My expectations are non-existing. I skip everything after Kaiten removal and the only thing that's appealing are friends I made, housing decors and getting helpers high by helping PF groups clear raids.

Yoshi P's final argument to me makes no sense... " Just go Play Ultimate ". A job does not get more fun by doing a specific content, not for me. Savage is a snooze fest and I tried Ultimate, the experience is not fun. I had more fun spamming Kaiten for 8 hours farming Fates with a cone shaped Tenka Goken? over P6S. I can do that for days. Content does not make my Job fun. Making and keeping our gameplay Fun? makes our Job fun. And once our Job remains fun? all content regardless difficulty remains Fun. I'll spam Bozja again, I'll do fates, I'll queue up expert even when I am maxed on Tomes, I'll do every boring piece of content mindlessly because My job is Fun. Take that away? yeah... then " Take a break from the Game when it's not good " I guess right?

[Nizzi]

Return Miasma, Miasma II, Shadow Flare and Bane to Scholar, that is all

[AnotherPerson]

I find it funny how tanks are so average (6 to 7 out of 10) and the main opinion (mode) is sitting somewhere between 6 to 8 out of 10. So it's decently good, but could use improvement.

Melee DPS are sitting at 6 to 8 out of 10 on average, but the main opinion moves is somewhere between 8 to 10 out of 10 with Samurai being the odd one out at 7 out of 10 after losing Kaiten.
Caster DPS are 7 to 8 out of 10 on average, but the main opinion is a solid 10 with the exception of Summoner because its rotation is lacking substance in what the level 90 job's rotation could just be the lv 60 job's rotation (resulting in a low score of 4 on average and most people saying 1 out of 10).
Ranged DPS are sitting somewhere between a 5.5 to 7.5 out of 10, but the main opinion is 7 to 8 out of 10 with the exception of Bard after its gameplay changed (mode being 6 out of 10).

And then healers are just averaged 4.5 to 5 out of 10, but the main opinion is just a 1 across the board outside of challenging content.

[Remish]

I wish they never got rid of Aero 3. It had amazing animation.

[VentVanitas]

Don't know why this didn't strike me until now but enjoyment of a job does not accurately describe or capture my overall thoughts on how it is designed. I enjoy playing Monk (always have, even ShB MNK which was complete garbage), but that doesn't necessarily mean I think it's well designed- quite the opposite in fact.

I gave solo play for MNK a low score because it just... feels weak. Brotherhood feels awful to use in general, but it's at its absolute worst in solo instances/content. I don't know why or how they managed to screw it up even more, but ever since EW dropped it has had this disgusting delay on the Chakra gain which is an issue that is only exacerbated with high ping. Double weaving is more important now on EW MNK than it was in its ShB iteration, which only piles onto the problem since your weave slots are going to be dependent on whether Brotherhood wants to play nice today. I've seen a few submissions in the document describe this problem as well, wishing they could play MNK without needing to rely on plugins like Noclippy.

I gave MNK a mini-rework rating because in my eyes I see that as the scale of mechanics or skills being reworked, whereas major-reworks are more like ShB DRK/MCH. MNK needs a lot of work, but it doesn't need the nuclear option like those two jobs. Most of MNK's problems stem from one singular mechanic anyway, and that's Chakra. Easily the biggest cancer tumour of the job and I don't think it's controversial to say that it's up there with SCH's Fae gauge and PLD's Oath gauge as the worst job elements in the game.

An RNG based mechanic just does not fit well on the job with the points I've said above (limited weave windows and and overall ping-unfriendly), especially when it has no form of leniency or capability of banking unlike other proc based mechanics like DNC's Fan Dances/Saber Dance or BRD's Repertoire procs. Meaning there is absolutely no thought or strategy to Chakra, as soon as you get 5, you immediately burn it. That's it, that's all there is to it, and yet despite how simple it is the mechanic is deeply rooted into the job's design in a way that does not feel cohesive or intuitive at all. Case in point, MNK's disconnect kit: Meditate is the job's "ranged filler GCD" stand in, but it overlaps with Six Sided Star which does not allow you to use Meditate in conjunction with it, which also overlaps with Anatman which is a channel skill locked onto a GCD and does not generate Chakra at all.

Maybe it could have been considered """fine""" in previous iterations of Monk when the job had more systems to manage like Greased Lightning, Positionals or stance dancing so it could afford to have a simpler gauge on top of all of that, but in its current form? Blitz and Chakra are literally the only two things it has. It needs to be reworked. It's a complete shitshow of a mechanic and I'm genuinely shocked that no one else realises how garbage its design is.

[CelestiCer]

Compiled SAM threads regarding Kaiten removal and wanting it back -> " Click Here " <- it's a crap ton. I stopped compiling at like idk 155 threads? give or take. And the video references as well from multiple creators. I just started losing count. SAM is still fun, but many do still want it back.

[Oizen]

Heavensward Boomer energy is strong with DRK lol

[Aravell]

I just wanted to chime in again and say that I'm happy that quite some people appreciated HW BRD, that was one of my favourite iterations of BRD, I greatly enjoyed both bowmage and gunmage. But I concede that a great many people hated it and it was a bad thing to give BRD cast times just to match with MCH, also SB BRD was also a lot of fun and quite well-designed.

However, I still firmly believe that them backtracking on their original vision of MCH in HW caused irreparable damage to the design as a whole. The SB form of MCH was obviously hastily slapped together and was a hot mess (heh, heat) of a job. I really wished there was a way to preserve the gameplay of gunmage and I firmly believe that it's a huge mistake to force onto BRD what MCH is designed for and vice versa.

[Connor]

I just wanted to chime in again and say that I'm happy that quite some people appreciated HW BRD, that was one of my favourite iterations of BRD, I greatly enjoyed both bowmage and gunmage. But I concede that a great many people hated it and it was a bad thing to give BRD cast times just to match with MCH, also SB BRD was also a lot of fun and quite well-designed.

However, I still firmly believe that them backtracking on their original vision of MCH in HW caused irreparable damage to the design as a whole. The SB form of MCH was obviously hastily slapped together and was a hot mess (heh, heat) of a job. I really wished there was a way to preserve the gameplay of gunmage and I firmly believe that it's a huge mistake to force onto BRD what MCH is designed for and vice versa.

Honestly after Heavensward’s BRD/MCH buff-battle every patch I genuinely don’t think the developers are even going to bother trying to balance them. Bard will forever remain a lacklustre, boring dps with some barely existent ‘party support’ (if you can call dps skills that incidentally buff the party ‘support’ lol). Machinist will forever remain the Wish version of Black Mage / Samurai, built upon the same concept yet literally incapable of utilising it because ranged tax.

Then there’s Dancer which I honestly think is a devs main or something lol, they basically took everything good from the ranged dps role and slapped it all on Dancer. And even then from what I understand Dancer is mostly used for dps/parse padding and not because it’s a valuable job to take lol.

The whole ranged dps subcategory desperately needs to reworked.
Being a shit dps ‘that can move a bit more than everyone else’ is the most ridiculous justification for a subcategory to exist lol.
‘You can play this sub role, but you’ll be eternally shit, your gameplay is going to be dull as hell…’ Bard is literally just hitting Burst Shot and Procs now, and yet only healers complain about having a one/two button rotation. I honestly feel like Bard is just as bad as healers in terms of ‘one-button spam’ and occasionally smashing an oGCD with your face. Least Bards buff party members when they run their face across the keyboard lol. I mean their only unique support ability now is fucking Mantra now, the Monk ability lol. Except Monks is on a shorter cool-down so they literally offer the party more frequently used unique support than the so-called ‘support dps’. Bard’s is 5% stronger, sure, but honestly I’d rather use it more frequently than get a measly 5% extra healing (that nobody ever wants lol)

‘Oh but it’s ok, you can support the party - with dps. Except your dps is never as good as anyone else’s. So you’re a support whose support is their damage…but you cant do damage…you can’t use meaningful support because bAlAnCe (mocking the devs here not the players lol).

Basically if you want to play a ranged dps you’re either relegated to Dancer for someone’s parses or you’re a Bard / Machinist which is just a shittier version of something else (Dancer and Black Mage / Samurai respectively)

If you ask me the developers desperately need to go way back to the original concepts for the jobs. Bards buff the party by casting songs (1.5 cast times reduce necessity of ranged taxes and doesn’t affect oGCD usage), Machinists debuff the enemy with their tools, auto-turrets and the like, Dancers provide stronger buffs but they’re contingent on the Dance Partner. All this ‘dps padding to make it look like they’re as good as the others except they never are’ is just getting really silly at this point.