FFXIV Job Design Feedback

[Aravell]

The results so far look interesting. I'm wondering if the high scores on MCH is because of the positive changes they got recently, would the scores be much lower back in 6.2, I wonder?

[Semirhage]

Taking "Most people rate WHM a 5/10" to mean "WHM is enjoyable as-is!" is an...interpretation.

Wow, a class people find mediocre and don't really care about, how fun.

[RitsukoSonoda]

Taking "Most people rate WHM a 5/10" to mean "WHM is enjoyable as-is!" is an...interpretation.

Wow, a class people find mediocre and don't really care about, how fun.

Hey! WHM was my go to job for doing Bozja stuff on lazy mode before Sage was added. :P

[EliaStormblade]

It heartens me that the overall view on Dragoon in 6.0 is positive. There are ways in which it could be better, but I do think it does pretty well as is. That's why I hope they reconsider majorly reworking it in 7.0. That "we want to rework DRG because it's too busy" makes me worry.

[Remish]

It heartens me that the overall view on Dragoon in 6.0 is positive. There are ways in which it could be better, but I do think it does pretty well as is. That's why I hope they reconsider majorly reworking it in 7.0. That "we want to rework DRG because it's too busy" makes me worry.

I just want Dragonsight gone and I would main it again. I dislike that skill a lot.

[EliaStormblade]

I just want Dragonsight gone and I would main it again. I dislike that skill a lot.

It's basically the one thing I harp on too. That and that I would like more mobility options and maybe something a little more exciting than Spineshatter Dive as an oGCD.

But yeah, it's mainly just Dragon Sight, lol.

[ForsakenRoe]

When I interpret the results, all of the results show a majority of "no rework" for healers.

Could you explain cos I'm confused, when I look, 'no rework' is the smallest chunk of the chart for each of the healers (it doesn't even appear on the AST one), so I'm maybe misunderstanding what you mean by it being 'the majority'. Unless you meant the opposite, that the majority say 'we need at least something to change for healer X'

It's basically the one thing I harp on too. That and that I would like more mobility options and maybe something a little more exciting than Spineshatter Dive as an oGCD.

But yeah, it's mainly just Dragon Sight, lol.

While back I suggested somewhere that maybe they could just merge DragonSight as a bonus effect on Litany, since you pop both at 2min anyway. Rather than 10% crit and a seperate 'you and your ally get 5% damage', it'd be more like, idk, 10% crit and 2-3% damage for all, with some potency adjustments to rebalance it. I also would suggest merging Spineshatter with Dragonfire Dive (it upgrades at 50) because I'd argue DFD really sucks too in terms of impact. A 2min OGCD that does 400p, wow, meanwhile GNB gets 350p on a 30s CD, later upgrading to like 800p (Blasting Zone). Or Bow Shock being 650p over it's full duration, on a 1min CD. So yeh, make DFD a 1min CD that replaces Spineshatter, move the potency from SS to DFD to compensate for the loss as needed, and have DFD get the 2 charge trait instead.

Also make Stardiver either way faster to avoid clipping, or potentially make it a GCD with a ridiculous potency (this would be potentially interesting because we could LifeSurge it to guarantee it crits). If it stays OGCD though, they can remove Life Surge.

[IDontPetLalas]

Could you explain cos I'm confused, when I look, 'no rework' is the smallest chunk of the chart for each of the healers (it doesn't even appear on the AST one), so I'm maybe misunderstanding what you mean by it being 'the majority'. Unless you meant the opposite, that the majority say 'we need at least something to change for healer X'



While back I suggested somewhere that maybe they could just merge DragonSight as a bonus effect on Litany, since you pop both at 2min anyway. Rather than 10% crit and a seperate 'you and your ally get 5% damage', it'd be more like, idk, 10% crit and 2-3% damage for all, with some potency adjustments to rebalance it. I also would suggest merging Spineshatter with Dragonfire Dive (it upgrades at 50) because I'd argue DFD really sucks too in terms of impact. A 2min OGCD that does 400p, wow, meanwhile GNB gets 350p on a 30s CD, later upgrading to like 800p (Blasting Zone). Or Bow Shock being 650p over it's full duration, on a 1min CD. So yeh, make DFD a 1min CD that replaces Spineshatter, move the potency from SS to DFD to compensate for the loss as needed, and have DFD get the 2 charge trait instead.

Also make Stardiver either way faster to avoid clipping, or potentially make it a GCD with a ridiculous potency (this would be potentially interesting because we could LifeSurge it to guarantee it crits). If it stays OGCD though, they can remove Life Surge.

To reply to your question, I wrote that somewhat rapidly, what i meant to say, and didn't even get all my edits in- what say from my view a majority of the healers wanted a rework. Now I see both of you and Renathras are discussing what a "rework" is- and to me that is a more interesting discussing - since the extremes are self evident i.e. no and full re-work- however knowing what is meant by a minor and a major re-work is not as clear to me for the survey respondents, unless the verbatim analysis was done- I may have missed that.

[Renathras]

...

Plurality.

The largest single group, but still less than 50% and thus "the largest minority" in a case where there is no majority.

Problem with catering exclusively to those people is that it is technically a case of the majority not wanting what those people want, and so the majority isn't getting what they like. So the trick is to see what is the largest either first OR second choice total. Hence Ranked Choice Voting/Instant Runoff being a good way to determine that.

As for 5/10 - a net rating of around "neutral" honestly isn't terrible. One interesting thing is (baring SMN because of maybe(?) salt bombing), none of the Jobs rates 4 or lower. The "weakest" Jobs otherwise (AST) are pretty close to "neutral" satisfaction. Assuming people with 5/10 ratings actually mean neutral.

Also, not going to hammer you on the No Rework thing. Not sure what you were looking at, but maybe...I dunno, another tab or the different eras people preferred?

Since I DO like when we can find things to agree on - you agree with my assessment of SCH and AST based on the data, yes? That it's pretty clear a majority really want their SB kits back?

I don't think it's fair to group Major/Total while not grouping Mini/No or Mini/Major. That just happens to be the grouping that you'd pick if you really wanted to push for big changes, but I don't think it's a fair appraisal of what the majority want. Besides which, as I noted with WHM, even adding them like that; the numbers as of now:

No Change: 21.0%
Mini: 38.1%
Major: 22.9%
Total: 18.1%

Major + Total is still only 41%, which is a minority. It's barely even bigger than the people that want JUST a mini rework (38.1% is only 2.9% less). So even if we grouped them that way, the WHM majority falls into the camp of "Doesn't want a Major or Total rework" since 59.1% aren't voting for either Major nor Total reworks.

CONVERSELY, though:

SCH:
No Change: 9.6%
Mini: 29.8%
Major: 44.7%
Total: 15.8%

Major + Total here would be 60.5%, a clear majority.

AST:
No Change: 0.0%
Mini: 27.9%
Major: 44.2%
Total: 27.9%

Major + Total = 72.1%, again a clear majority.

Those two have a clear verdict, though note that Mini = Total for AST (meaning Major should be the objective), and Min > Total for SCH (again meaning Major should be the objective. For WHM, Mini > all, Mini is the natural plurality (doesn't have to add anything to it and is still the plurality), and Mini + No or Mini + Major is > any other combination anyway. This means for WHM, the objective should be a very minor rework, on the lower end of Mini. Which seems to be what people want judging by the replies to mostly leave it the same, add a mitigation and Aero 3/Banish, and kind of call it a day.

But no, I don't think it's fair to group as three separate ones with Major and Total together. Either we need to redo the survey with only the three options or we have to look at all four and see which would be "natural allies" to get to a majority (an absolute > 50% majority, which does require combining some). Like I'd say No Change, but be content with a Minor Rework. So if that logic means to you you can combine Major and Total, then it must also mean we can combine No With Minor. Keep in mind, I'm saying the larger/more moderate of the coalition is the coalition policy. If we're forming a "coalition government", the No Change will caucus with Mini before they would with Major or Total, and even if Major and Total are caucusing together, they're still not a majority (50%+1) and thus couldn't form a government unless they also bring some Minis and/or Nos on board. Mini is already the largest vote recipient in the first round of voting, so they get to form the core of the coalition to begin with, and they can reach a majority causing with either No or Major, and the No people would be quick to accept that caucus/coalition offer.

.

Also, no worries on honest mistakes. /hug

To reply to your question, I wrote that somewhat rapidly, what i meant to say, and didn't even get all my edits in- what say from my view a majority of the healers wanted a rework. Now I see both of you and Renathras are discussing what a "rework" is- and to me that is a more interesting discussing - since the extremes are self evident i.e. no and full re-work- however knowing what is meant by a minor and a major re-work is not as clear to me for the survey respondents, unless the verbatim analysis was done- I may have missed that.

Agreed. Total rework is fairly obvious and No Change is self-explanatory. Minor and Major are a bit trickier. They're nebulous, but still concrete ENOUGH to talk about, even if the specifics are kind of off. Fortunately, the written out answers can help with understanding there. E.g. how most WHM ones that actually state specifics amount to "Give us a short duration party mitigation and give us Aero 3/Banish"; those are pretty actionable items and really wouldn't change the overall Job itself all that much. A different lead button to hit in AOE trash packs and a button to hit when you'd like to hit Temperance but it's on CD (especially if that button was an effect added to an existing button, like Plenary)

I tend to think of things like this as "what would the most natural second choices be?"

The extreme positions generally have the least votes. Total Overhaul (WHM, SGE) or No Change (SCH, AST) are the least picked. So the question is, what would their second choice be? For No Change, it's naturally going to be Mini Rework, and for Total Overhaul it's going to be Major Rework. So then we look at the numbers again and see if that's a majority. If it is, yay, we have our answer. If it's not, we look at what else is needed. AST has Mini and Total equal, and Major the plurality, so Major change seems to be the obvious solution there. The others aren't AS clear cut, but Major is the plurality for SCH (which would be the second choice for Total) and Minor is the plurality for WHM and SGE (which, when the No votes are added to them becomes the majority coalition)

EDIT: Also, unless someone specifically asks otherwise (case by case basis, that), I use the pronouns of their avatar. /shrug That's the closest thing (given forums) to a chosen identity being expressed, and the most fair and neutral way to choose a base pronoun set. But yeah...irrelevant to the topic, just that's the why.

[Renathras]

Taking "Most people rate WHM a 5/10" to mean "WHM is enjoyable as-is!" is an...interpretation.

Start by learning statistics. An average rating of 5/10 isn't "most people rate". It's an average of all ratings. If you'd like, I can explain the difference between average, median, mode, bi-modal, and tri-modal to you?

Also, where did I say "WHM is enjoyable as-is!"? I swear, if you spent less time making up things I didn't say and only addressing the things I said, we MIGHT even get along!

My point was, of the Healers, SGE is actually moderately well regarded and that a majority of WHM responses seem to be people saying post-SB WHM is what they want, generally with just a minor tweak like returning Aero 3 to them. Contrast with SCH and AST, both of which STRONGLY want the pre-ShB versions of their Jobs back, and AST in particular where everyone wants a rework.