FFXIV Job Design Feedback

[RitsukoSonoda]

What if they brought TP back but instead of linking every physical skill to it like they did before they use it like they did in FFXI where it accumulated from attacking and then could be spent on skills that would be usable when TP hit 100% but offer additional scaling or bonus effects based on how far past 100% TP was at when used to a cap of 300% TP? Could add a bit to those solo button skills that get pressed every time they're off cooldown.

[Amenara]

What if they brought TP back but instead of linking every physical skill to it like they did before they use it like they did in FFXI where it accumulated from attacking and then could be spent on skills that would be usable when TP hit 100% but offer additional scaling or bonus effects based on how far past 100% TP was at when used to a cap of 300% TP?

I love FF11 but I'd rather keep the TP system they have there as it works with everything they have built on in their combat system. You can look at our version of FF11 TP as the limit break bar...

[RitsukoSonoda]

I love FF11 but I'd rather keep the TP system they have there as it works with everything they have built on in their combat system. You can look at our version of FF11 TP as the limit break bar...

Not really. You didn't constantly lose your TP in FFXI to a random nub with an obsession to mash every button they can find.

[Amenara]

Not really. You didn't constantly lose your TP in FFXI to a random nub with an obsession to mash every button they can find.

Sure it's a shared resource but it is something that you build up while attacking (and other things) that you can use at different tiers to get a stronger effect. If it were individually spent it would be pretty much the same thing.

[Asari5]

the problem is... there are players who play 18 jobs... it doesnt make sense for these players to voice changes for the 19. job since they dont play it anyway. not all jobs have to be for all people

[Crater]

Would Living Shadow feel better and function well if Frey was designed to imitate the GCDs you use, perhaps up to 5 hits or so? I know a big complaint with Living Shadow as well as the Automaton Queen is that they feel like glorified DoTs, so I am curious if making Frey's action usage dependent on your own would resolve that.

It wouldn't really change much. There isn't really a meaningful difference between Living Shadow attacking on its own every x seconds and attacking when you use a GCD, which is something that also happens every x seconds.
The problem with Living Shadow is that the properties that make it feel bad to use are the exact same properties that make it such an effective and (within the context of the overall FFXIV 5.0+ combat system) well-designed.

The main reason that it feels bad is because of the summoning delay when the skill is used. The 7-8 seconds between pressing the Living Shadow button and Esteem making its first attack makes the effect of the skill feel completely disconnected from the player's actions. But, at the same time, the ability to precast the skill is a part of why DRK is so good at dealing damage during a burst. As it stands, you typically have between 10 and 12 oGCD "slots" under buffs: 4-5 of which are taken up by Edge of Shadow, 2 are taken by Shadowbringer, 2 are taken by Plunge, 1 is used by Carve and Spit, sometimes you need to fit Salt and Darkness (and even Salted Earth) in there, and frequently you also need to fit some mitigation. If Living Shadow were made into an immediate buff, in the service of making the skill feel more impactful, the actual quality and design of the class would suffer, because one of those oGCD slots would be permanently occupied.

The busyness of DRK's burst is good - being an oGCD-heavy class is a vital part of DRK's mechanical identity and has been an important part of the class in every iteration of it (save maybe Shadowbringers) - so trying to remove oGCDs to make room for other oGCDs would be a bad idea. The pre-casted nature of Living Shadow should therefore stay, even if it makes the skill feel bad to use.


The second-biggest reason that it feels bad to use is that despite Living Shadow's exceptionally high overall potency, its damage is split up into six mid-sized damage instances. The actual power of the skill is basically on par with a Gunbreaker being able to use Double Down twice, at the same time, as an oGCD that still allows them to spend their GCD on Gnashing Fang or Burst Strike - but because it's comprised of five 350 potency attacks and one 500 potency attack, there's no "Wow, look how big that number is!" effect that you get with Double Down, Inner Chaos, Primal Rend, etc.

But again, that's a key element of why the skill is as effective and well-designed as it is. When your 2250 potency attack is split up into six different hits, each of those hits rolls for Critical and Direct Hits independently, which tends to normalize the skill's damage to your actual CH/DH stats (and doesn't require any auto-Crit/DH effects, which also generally feel bad). The consistency that DRK achieves by landing many medium-potency hits instead of a small number of high-potency hits stands out in stark contrast to something like Gunbreaker's effectiveness varying wildly depending on whether Double Down lands DCH or not, which is very important when you start dealing with short DPS phases like the ones you see in Ultimates. (For the same reason, it is hugely important that Shadowbringer is 2 charges of a 600 potency oGCD, instead of a single charge of a 1200 potency oGCD or two 1000 potency GCDs or whatever.)

Things that are well-designed feel bad to use.
Things that feel good to use are poorly-designed.

This is just an unavoidable consequence of the current state of FFXIV's combat system. At least in this case, I don't think the problem can be tackled by making changes to a single skill, or even overhauling an entire job, in a vacuum. Fixing these sorts of things would require a pretty significant overhaul to the entire design of FFXIV combat, at least on the scale of how the game changed between Stormblood and Shadowbringers.

[fulminating]

It feels bad because you press the button to make some npc show up and beyond dying you can’t affect it after that. For all its faults, primal rend at least allows the player some agency, which given the dark knight story quests is rather ironic.

[ItsUrBoi]

1. -> Compared to past expansions mostly every job can fit into the 2 minute meta at the expanse of diversity and uniqueness. Short term it is a strategy that can be used for 1 expansion since it was never done before, but long term jobs should get abilities and burst windows that can align with the 2 minute meta while making jobs feel unique. An example of this would be to make jobs work around 30 , 40 or 60 second burst windows. Not only either 60 seconds or 2 minutes for a simpler alignment - most fights are heavily in favor of 100% up time so there's no need to worry about drifting cooldowns, and even so, designing the encounters around this is possible.

2. -> Stormblood.


3.-> FF XIV should be doing this as it allows for a more direct feedback channel between balance and job design teams and the community. Rewards could vary from mounts, free game time, gil, titles, glamours, dyes.


I will leave a few ideas for DRK that I have seen as it seems to be the most controversial tank by a large margin ( the problem child of tanks ):

-> Delirium allows a special combo to be executed off of Bloodspiller, with 2 new actions. Quietus removed, Bloodspiller has AoE damage.
-> Delirium and Blood weapon are on a 40 second CD.
-> Scourge is a new GCD action that does high AoE damage with fall off after the first enemy hit. 20 sec CD. If Darkside is active, heals you for 400 potency for the first enemy hit, and 100 potency for all remaining enemies.
-> Living Shadow increases the potency of all GCDs by 150 potency and of all oGCDs by 50 potency. Esteem is not summoned, instead you get a RPR like effect ( a combination between Esteem's aura and darkside / grit effects ). You also gain 15% skill and spell speed.
-> TBN lasts 8 seconds. Dark Arts effect gained by breaking TBN now also make the next Edge/Flood of Shadow heal for potency equal to damage dealt.
-> Dark Mind's damage reduction put into Oblation at lvl 82. Oblation lasts 12 seconds.
-> Salted Earth reduces damage dealt by enemies standing inside it by 10%, if 3 or more enemies are inside it.

[ForsakenRoe]

More like SB. No Cleric Stance. HW having Cleric Stance makes it a different animal.

SB added Earthly Star, I think that's the point where 'you can erase so many GCDs from your healing' got really out of control. Before that, your OGCD suite was very limited, WHM had Asylum and Assize (but Assize only did the damage half cos haha cleric), SCH had Soil (with no regen), Indom, Whispering Dawn (which could be roused). AST had what, bubble that you had to channel for the full duration? CU didn't heal it extended buffs, Star Horoscope etc didn't exist yet, if anything it was about reducing GCDs by 'using some, and extending their effects to prevent needing to cast another to reapply'

The best comparison would be 'HW, if damage skills scaled from mind as in SB', but that didn't exist

GNB stuff

They really ought to change DoubleDown to 2 hits of 600p instead of one of 1200p, shouldn't they

[ty_taurus]

They really ought to change DoubleDown to 2 hits of 600p instead of one of 1200p, shouldn't they

A lot of crit variance issues could be more effectively resolved through making attacks multi-hit rather than just making them auto crit/direct hit. It's another thing that just makes me anxious to see if they'll return to more dramatic combat changes in the next expansion rather than just doing shadowbringers 3.0. I am sincerely worried that if they don't do something to shake up the gameplay, it will have damaging repercussions on the game's longevity.