Why do people avoid getting better at the game?

[R041]

Probably because there is. You're not the one who gets to sets up the parameters of the challenge, and I have no idea why you're under this impression. The challenge was given to the original poster I quoted several pages back, who did indeed say ShB-EW, and I already mentioned which dungeons from these expansions I planned on going into.

However, you are the one that stated why pick a "Diamond in the rough?", so I was happy to oblige by picking a dungeon from each expansion since you're the one who originally stated that dungeons get easier as we go higher. So I'll ask you again, do you truly believe that the bosses from instances like Sastasha or Wanderer's Palace HM or harder than bosses from instances like Ktisis Hyperboreia or Lapis Manalis? Forget the trash pulls. No one cares about those.

Alright, alright - But you can't skew the results by using the exceptions of each expansion. That's pretty weak. lol

If we were being genuine about this, we should take WAR + 3 DPS and run through all dungeons, in every expansion. I would honestly be curious to see the results of that, and could even be convinced to participate. It could take weeks, or months.

Now I'm more on the side of science, this is a weird competition.

Also, if people do this - We should make a new thread for it and write results and struggles.

[Nestama]

Alright, alright - But you can't skew the results by using the exceptions of each expansion. That's pretty weak. lol

If we were being genuine about this, we should take WAR + 3 DPS and run through all dungeons, in every expansion. I would honestly be curious to see the results of that, and could even be convinced to participate. It could take weeks, or months.

Now I'm more on the side of science, this is a weird competition.

Also, if people do this - We should make a new thread for it and write results and struggles.

I decided to do Amaurot solo as WAR and ilvl sync'd just to see how far I'd go. It took around 7 minutes to beat the first pack (single pull style because no way a level+ilevel sync'd WAR is surviving a w2w on their own) and I just went "nah, this is too boring" and quit. Because all I'm doing is jumping from single target to AoE (Raw Intuition heals) and that's just not exciting.

but hey, didn't need a healer for that at least.

[Gemina]

Alright, alright - But you can't skew the results by using the exceptions of each expansion. That's pretty weak. lol

If we were being genuine about this, we should take WAR + 3 DPS and run through all dungeons, in every expansion. I would honestly be curious to see the results of that, and could even be convinced to participate. It could take weeks, or months.

Now I'm more on the side of science, this is a weird competition.

Also, if people do this - We should make a new thread for it and write results and struggles.

Again, it cannot be 3 DPS/1 tank. It has to be a normal light party and cannot be ran undersized. If you want the results to be genuine and not skewed this is exactly how it has to be. Don't claim I'm being weak by using exceptions when that's what you're trying to do by trying to accomplish this with an undersized party comp. If I was trying to use exceptions, I would be tossing out silly rules like the WAR can't use self heals, or excluding WAR completely. Although tempting, I won't go that far. However, a different tank such as DRK would definitely make things a lot more interesting.

[AnotherPerson]

Again, it cannot be 3 DPS/1 tank. It has to be a normal light party and cannot be ran undersized. If you want the results to be genuine and not skewed this is exactly how it has to be. Don't claim I'm being weak by using exceptions when that's what you're trying to do by trying to accomplish this with an undersized party comp. If I was trying to use exceptions, I would be tossing out silly rules like the WAR can't use self heals, or excluding WAR completely. Although tempting, I won't go that far. However, a different tank such as DRK would definitely make things a lot more interesting.

I took this to PF and got random players to try out the challenge and see if it's possible because I was also curious to see if you can clear it with a 1 tank, 1 healer that can't heal, and 2 DPS. The goal was "Can we clear the dungeon with a healer that doesn't heal in the duty?" The answer - yes, it's possible to clear the duty with a healer that doesn't heal. It was really chaotic, but all of us had a lot of fun. We just treated the whole experience like a deep dungeon encounter and had time to try out other combinations as well.

It's possible to clear the The Dead Ends without a healer healing in bosses or in mobs with PLD/WAR/DRK. All pulls were wall to wall. I have yet to test GNB because it was super late after we did the pulls and called it a night.

The party compositions used were:
PLD/AST/BLM/SMN
WAR/SCH/DNC/RDM
DRK/SGE/BLM/RPR

Limitations were set as we went along since it wasn't mentioned in detail:
1. Healers cannot use skills that gives raw HP / shield
2. Healers cannot raise
3. WHM cannot use Assize even though it does damage (because it gives AoE healing)
4. SCH cannot use fairy
5. SGE cannot use Kardia
6. DPS (if applicable) can only raise 2 times per boss

With these limitations, healers are very gimped DPS. Since they cannot heal, AST just had card buffs and malefic/gravity spam. SCH cannot use Fey Illumination or Dissipation for Energy Drain. SGE just had phlegma balls. After we discussed and tried the healers, we came to the conclusion that out of all the healers, WHM/SCH are the strongest healers in this scenario. WHM had Holy to make mobs easier. SCH ended up being the strongest because of Expedient was allowed for being a purely mitigation skill. It acted as a replacement for a DPS slot's mitigation skill & Chain Strategem.

Funnily enough, most of us were healer mains, so when we flexed on other roles, we weren't super amazing at them. There was quite a learning curve, but it worked out.

PLD was doable, but was a bit rough. We took a lot of avoidable damage. I messed up wasting a mitigation at one point and couldn't pull the second wall-to-wall without dying on my first run through due to it. That led to some interesting sleep strategies being discussed... There was also a moment where I just screwed up on the Final Boss which prevented us from getting the clear (unsurprisingly was due to taking a lot of avoidable damage because I brain farted twice in a row lol). We had 2 wipes total. Other than those mishaps, it wasn't that bad. Including the wipes and running back, it took roughly 27~28 minutes. If you want to see a first person perspective on the PLD run, I can upload a video of how it went. Props to the Black Mage who was brave enough to participate in this challenge and was their second time running The Dead Ends (their first time being the MSQ). We played bad enough that it was pretty much a DF encounter. Surprised with much we can get away with using this party too. XD


WAR had no issues. We cleared it in 16 minutes in one go. The party composition was really strong too, to the point where we decided to see how far we can push a tank with the next party composition... I'll have to upload a video of this one later.

DRK... hoo boy. Compared to PLD & WAR, this one was so scuffed. xD So while we did clear this without a healer healing in any wall-to-wall pull and without healing during boss fights, it was a lot more strict compared to PLD/WAR since they had recovery abilities and DRK didn't. Our DRK couldn't survive without Living Dead in wall-to-wall pulls (and also because of me derping & causing wipes), BUT it is clearable without a healer, funnily enough. This party composition didn't have much sustain, if any, so we had to kill the Final Boss before the Double "Warm Glow" mechanic. It's basically a soft DPS check at that point. It probably didn't help that we also had a lot of shenanigans happening in the dungeon (I haven't touched BLM since Lv 80 in PvE as I purely leveled BLM to lv 90 through PvP, so I was basically relearning the rotation in that dungeon and dropping Enochian left and right LMAO). We had to take turns with our mitigations, and it turns out we were lacking just a bit more HP to clear it with our skill level -- but that was solved with HP potions -- yes, the items with a cooldown that you usually use when your healer is either dead or you're doing deep dungeon content. Turns out DRK really didn't need a healer to make things work. The entire run, if we include every wipe and running back + learning when to best mitigate + me messing up my BLM rotation, took around 67 minutes. If we just include the wall-to-walls + the pull where we killed the Final Boss (3 min boss fight), it took around 28 minutes.

An important thing to note, it is still doable without a healer healing and taking up a party slot. It only made me realize the effects of having a 3rd DPS more strongly here -- because a 3rd DPS could have given us more mitigation and made the "DPS check" gone by a lot smoother than what the healer that didn't heal could have done here.... which unfortunately only proves that healers are meant to raise the maximum survival threshold of the party, but the party doesn't necessarily need a healer healing to clear the dungeon - as is the case compared to ARR dungeons where you just simply can't outheal the damage due to how integral a healer is. In other words... healers really have became somewhat superfluous in terms of being necessary for a clear, at least for this dungeon.

[Kacho_Nacho]

I took this to PF and got random players to try out the challenge and see if it's possible because I was also curious to see if you can clear it with a 1 tank, 1 healer that can't heal, and 2 DPS. The goal was "Can we clear the dungeon with a healer that doesn't heal in the duty?" The answer - yes, it's possible to clear the duty with a healer that doesn't heal. It was really chaotic, but all of us had a lot of fun. We just treated the whole experience like a deep dungeon encounter and had time to try out other combinations as well.

It's possible to clear the The Dead Ends without a healer healing in bosses or in mobs with PLD/WAR/DRK. All pulls were wall to wall. I have yet to test GNB because it was super late after we did the pulls and called it a night.

The party compositions used were:
PLD/AST/BLM/SMN
WAR/SCH/DNC/RDM
DRK/SGE/BLM/RPR

Limitations were set as we went along since it wasn't mentioned in detail:
1. Healers cannot use skills that gives raw HP / shield
2. Healers cannot raise
3. WHM cannot use Assize even though it does damage (because it gives AoE healing)
4. SCH cannot use fairy
5. SGE cannot use Kardia
6. DPS (if applicable) can only raise 2 times per boss

With these limitations, healers are very gimped DPS. Since they cannot heal, AST just had card buffs and malefic/gravity spam. SCH cannot use Fey Illumination or Dissipation for Energy Drain. SGE just had phlegma balls. After we discussed and tried the healers, we came to the conclusion that out of all the healers, WHM/SCH are the strongest healers in this scenario. WHM had Holy to make mobs easier. SCH ended up being the strongest because of Expedient was allowed for being a purely mitigation skill. It acted as a replacement for a DPS slot's mitigation skill & Chain Strategem.

Funnily enough, most of us were healer mains, so when we flexed on other roles, we weren't super amazing at them. There was quite a learning curve, but it worked out.

PLD was doable, but was a bit rough. We took a lot of avoidable damage. I messed up wasting a mitigation at one point and couldn't pull the second wall-to-wall without dying on my first run through due to it. That led to some interesting sleep strategies being discussed... There was also a moment where I just screwed up on the Final Boss which prevented us from getting the clear (unsurprisingly was due to taking a lot of avoidable damage because I brain farted twice in a row lol). We had 2 wipes total. Other than those mishaps, it wasn't that bad. Including the wipes and running back, it took roughly 27~28 minutes. If you want to see a first person perspective on the PLD run, I can upload a video of how it went. Props to the Black Mage who was brave enough to participate in this challenge and was their second time running The Dead Ends (their first time being the MSQ). We played bad enough that it was pretty much a DF encounter. Surprised with much we can get away with using this party too. XD


WAR had no issues. We cleared it in 16 minutes in one go. The party composition was really strong too, to the point where we decided to see how far we can push a tank with the next party composition... I'll have to upload a video of this one later.

DRK... hoo boy. Compared to PLD & WAR, this one was so scuffed. xD So while we did clear this without a healer healing in any wall-to-wall pull and without healing during boss fights, it was a lot more strict compared to PLD/WAR since they had recovery abilities and DRK didn't. Our DRK couldn't survive without Living Dead in wall-to-wall pulls (and also because of me derping & causing wipes), BUT it is clearable without a healer, funnily enough. This party composition didn't have much sustain, if any, so we had to kill the Final Boss before the Double "Warm Glow" mechanic. It's basically a soft DPS check at that point. It probably didn't help that we also had a lot of shenanigans happening in the dungeon (I haven't touched BLM since Lv 80 in PvE as I purely leveled BLM to lv 90 through PvP, so I was basically relearning the rotation in that dungeon and dropping Enochian left and right LMAO). We had to take turns with our mitigations, and it turns out we were lacking just a bit more HP to clear it with our skill level -- but that was solved with HP potions -- yes, the items with a cooldown that you usually use when your healer is either dead or you're doing deep dungeon content. Turns out DRK really didn't need a healer to make things work. The entire run, if we include every wipe and running back + learning when to best mitigate + me messing up my BLM rotation, took around 67 minutes. If we just include the wall-to-walls + the pull where we killed the Final Boss (3 min boss fight), it took around 28 minutes.

An important thing to note, it is still doable without a healer healing and taking up a party slot. It only made me realize the effects of having a 3rd DPS more strongly here -- because a 3rd DPS could have given us more mitigation and made the "DPS check" gone by a lot smoother than what the healer that didn't heal could have done here.... which unfortunately only proves that healers are meant to raise the maximum survival threshold of the party, but the party doesn't necessarily need a healer healing to clear the dungeon - as is the case compared to ARR dungeons where you just simply can't outheal the damage due to how integral a healer is. In other words... healers really have became somewhat superfluous in terms of being necessary for a clear, at least for this dungeon.

This sounds like a fun experiment! I'm not surprised scholar ended up being the strongest healer in your no-heal challenge. They're just a good all around job.

While white mage tends to have this reputation as Fisher Price Baby's First Healer, I find it also is a good all around job. Holy is great ability! Haters gotta hate, you know?

But, I'm surprised that sage didn't shine more. Were their damage abilities just too weak? Perhaps they'd do better when paired with another tank besides dark knight.

I'd love to hear how GNB compares to the other tanks. Also, I think it'll be interesting to know what results you get with a third damage dealer.

Personally, I think it's bad you were able to complete The Dead Ends without any healers healing. This indicates something is seriously wrong with dungeon design in FFXIV.

No role should be unnecessary unless you out level the content. In my mind, the pendulum needs to swing the other way with greater healing and mitigation checks required to complete the content.