Why do people avoid getting better at the game?

[TaleraRistain]

Hallway simulator that min-maxes my pulls is just not fun.

Unfortunately, this is what the community wanted. "Wall to wall is the standard" is something you see often repeated around here. And those who say that don't like if SE puts in puzzles or alternate paths or just a wall to limit pull sizes like we saw in earlier dungeons. People want their 15 minute or less dungeon runs because they've got to get their roulettes done and how dare anything like someone who's less experienced or a nifty side area in a dungeon slow that down.

[LaylaTsarra]

I did it first try as well but I have a background in stealth games. They're my favorite genre. I loved this instance. I could definitely see how people without that background could have had an issue, though. I haven't done it since they adjusted it, but didn't they just make what to do a little clearer? Or did they adjust some of the mobs so you could sneak past easier?

On very easy the objectives are all close to one another and mobs die faster.

[sagacious]

it creates a divide in the community between good players and bad players, giving good players a reason to be elitist, and therefore creating a toxic enviroment

Zepla quit the game because the Ultimates she did wore her out causing burnout. People complained mechanics were to easy, so ffxiv made them harder and this is the result. I mean why do I need to have muscle memory to complete these savages and Ulitimates? The elitist will burnout reducing there numbers reducing the elitist attitudes and toxicity.

[NekoMataMata]

I don't think I ever hear this.... I mostly see people giving advice on how to improve. No one ever says someone doing almost nothing is "perfect just the way it is"

You're not going to see it because no is ever really asked that. I've seen one person ask for critique after a dungeon actually. It was a tank in expert roulette that used 0 mitigations, and everyone except me told them they were great(and I didn't say anything because it wasn't worth the fight).

Almost every time I've seen someone give accurate advice in this game, I've seen it either casually dismissed, or aggressively dismissed.

Anyways, you're free to keep nitpicking if you want.

[AnotherPerson]

Again, it cannot be 3 DPS/1 tank. It has to be a normal light party and cannot be ran undersized. If you want the results to be genuine and not skewed this is exactly how it has to be. Don't claim I'm being weak by using exceptions when that's what you're trying to do by trying to accomplish this with an undersized party comp. If I was trying to use exceptions, I would be tossing out silly rules like the WAR can't use self heals, or excluding WAR completely. Although tempting, I won't go that far. However, a different tank such as DRK would definitely make things a lot more interesting.

I took this to PF and got random players to try out the challenge and see if it's possible because I was also curious to see if you can clear it with a 1 tank, 1 healer that can't heal, and 2 DPS. The goal was "Can we clear the dungeon with a healer that doesn't heal in the duty?" The answer - yes, it's possible to clear the duty with a healer that doesn't heal. It was really chaotic, but all of us had a lot of fun. We just treated the whole experience like a deep dungeon encounter and had time to try out other combinations as well.

It's possible to clear the The Dead Ends without a healer healing in bosses or in mobs with PLD/WAR/DRK. All pulls were wall to wall. I have yet to test GNB because it was super late after we did the pulls and called it a night.

The party compositions used were:
PLD/AST/BLM/SMN
WAR/SCH/DNC/RDM
DRK/SGE/BLM/RPR

Limitations were set as we went along since it wasn't mentioned in detail:
1. Healers cannot use skills that gives raw HP / shield
2. Healers cannot raise
3. WHM cannot use Assize even though it does damage (because it gives AoE healing)
4. SCH cannot use fairy
5. SGE cannot use Kardia
6. DPS (if applicable) can only raise 2 times per boss

With these limitations, healers are very gimped DPS. Since they cannot heal, AST just had card buffs and malefic/gravity spam. SCH cannot use Fey Illumination or Dissipation for Energy Drain. SGE just had phlegma balls. After we discussed and tried the healers, we came to the conclusion that out of all the healers, WHM/SCH are the strongest healers in this scenario. WHM had Holy to make mobs easier. SCH ended up being the strongest because of Expedient was allowed for being a purely mitigation skill. It acted as a replacement for a DPS slot's mitigation skill & Chain Strategem.

Funnily enough, most of us were healer mains, so when we flexed on other roles, we weren't super amazing at them. There was quite a learning curve, but it worked out.

PLD was doable, but was a bit rough. We took a lot of avoidable damage. I messed up wasting a mitigation at one point and couldn't pull the second wall-to-wall without dying on my first run through due to it. That led to some interesting sleep strategies being discussed... There was also a moment where I just screwed up on the Final Boss which prevented us from getting the clear (unsurprisingly was due to taking a lot of avoidable damage because I brain farted twice in a row lol). We had 2 wipes total. Other than those mishaps, it wasn't that bad. Including the wipes and running back, it took roughly 27~28 minutes. If you want to see a first person perspective on the PLD run, I can upload a video of how it went. Props to the Black Mage who was brave enough to participate in this challenge and was their second time running The Dead Ends (their first time being the MSQ). We played bad enough that it was pretty much a DF encounter. Surprised with much we can get away with using this party too. XD


WAR had no issues. We cleared it in 16 minutes in one go. The party composition was really strong too, to the point where we decided to see how far we can push a tank with the next party composition... I'll have to upload a video of this one later.

DRK... hoo boy. Compared to PLD & WAR, this one was so scuffed. xD So while we did clear this without a healer healing in any wall-to-wall pull and without healing during boss fights, it was a lot more strict compared to PLD/WAR since they had recovery abilities and DRK didn't. Our DRK couldn't survive without Living Dead in wall-to-wall pulls (and also because of me derping & causing wipes), BUT it is clearable without a healer, funnily enough. This party composition didn't have much sustain, if any, so we had to kill the Final Boss before the Double "Warm Glow" mechanic. It's basically a soft DPS check at that point. It probably didn't help that we also had a lot of shenanigans happening in the dungeon (I haven't touched BLM since Lv 80 in PvE as I purely leveled BLM to lv 90 through PvP, so I was basically relearning the rotation in that dungeon and dropping Enochian left and right LMAO). We had to take turns with our mitigations, and it turns out we were lacking just a bit more HP to clear it with our skill level -- but that was solved with HP potions -- yes, the items with a cooldown that you usually use when your healer is either dead or you're doing deep dungeon content. Turns out DRK really didn't need a healer to make things work. The entire run, if we include every wipe and running back + learning when to best mitigate + me messing up my BLM rotation, took around 67 minutes. If we just include the wall-to-walls + the pull where we killed the Final Boss (3 min boss fight), it took around 28 minutes.

An important thing to note, it is still doable without a healer healing and taking up a party slot. It only made me realize the effects of having a 3rd DPS more strongly here -- because a 3rd DPS could have given us more mitigation and made the "DPS check" gone by a lot smoother than what the healer that didn't heal could have done here.... which unfortunately only proves that healers are meant to raise the maximum survival threshold of the party, but the party doesn't necessarily need a healer healing to clear the dungeon - as is the case compared to ARR dungeons where you just simply can't outheal the damage due to how integral a healer is. In other words... healers really have became somewhat superfluous in terms of being necessary for a clear, at least for this dungeon.

[Kewitt]

I care what others think I'm hyper competitive however my hubby just wants to have fun. Not make a job out of his fun so as long as he can do the content he cares about he is happy. In turn I've given up ex content because if I'm doing ex content I was getting clears without him then he would want me to do it with him. He did clear some ex content normally it was a patch or 2 later.

If current ex content gave 3 or 4 times the tombs it word be worth it, but I cap tombs and log out for the week and to cap tombs quickly you don't need ex content to effort

[Kacho_Nacho]

I took this to PF and got random players to try out the challenge and see if it's possible because I was also curious to see if you can clear it with a 1 tank, 1 healer that can't heal, and 2 DPS. The goal was "Can we clear the dungeon with a healer that doesn't heal in the duty?" The answer - yes, it's possible to clear the duty with a healer that doesn't heal. It was really chaotic, but all of us had a lot of fun. We just treated the whole experience like a deep dungeon encounter and had time to try out other combinations as well.

It's possible to clear the The Dead Ends without a healer healing in bosses or in mobs with PLD/WAR/DRK. All pulls were wall to wall. I have yet to test GNB because it was super late after we did the pulls and called it a night.

The party compositions used were:
PLD/AST/BLM/SMN
WAR/SCH/DNC/RDM
DRK/SGE/BLM/RPR

Limitations were set as we went along since it wasn't mentioned in detail:
1. Healers cannot use skills that gives raw HP / shield
2. Healers cannot raise
3. WHM cannot use Assize even though it does damage (because it gives AoE healing)
4. SCH cannot use fairy
5. SGE cannot use Kardia
6. DPS (if applicable) can only raise 2 times per boss

With these limitations, healers are very gimped DPS. Since they cannot heal, AST just had card buffs and malefic/gravity spam. SCH cannot use Fey Illumination or Dissipation for Energy Drain. SGE just had phlegma balls. After we discussed and tried the healers, we came to the conclusion that out of all the healers, WHM/SCH are the strongest healers in this scenario. WHM had Holy to make mobs easier. SCH ended up being the strongest because of Expedient was allowed for being a purely mitigation skill. It acted as a replacement for a DPS slot's mitigation skill & Chain Strategem.

Funnily enough, most of us were healer mains, so when we flexed on other roles, we weren't super amazing at them. There was quite a learning curve, but it worked out.

PLD was doable, but was a bit rough. We took a lot of avoidable damage. I messed up wasting a mitigation at one point and couldn't pull the second wall-to-wall without dying on my first run through due to it. That led to some interesting sleep strategies being discussed... There was also a moment where I just screwed up on the Final Boss which prevented us from getting the clear (unsurprisingly was due to taking a lot of avoidable damage because I brain farted twice in a row lol). We had 2 wipes total. Other than those mishaps, it wasn't that bad. Including the wipes and running back, it took roughly 27~28 minutes. If you want to see a first person perspective on the PLD run, I can upload a video of how it went. Props to the Black Mage who was brave enough to participate in this challenge and was their second time running The Dead Ends (their first time being the MSQ). We played bad enough that it was pretty much a DF encounter. Surprised with much we can get away with using this party too. XD


WAR had no issues. We cleared it in 16 minutes in one go. The party composition was really strong too, to the point where we decided to see how far we can push a tank with the next party composition... I'll have to upload a video of this one later.

DRK... hoo boy. Compared to PLD & WAR, this one was so scuffed. xD So while we did clear this without a healer healing in any wall-to-wall pull and without healing during boss fights, it was a lot more strict compared to PLD/WAR since they had recovery abilities and DRK didn't. Our DRK couldn't survive without Living Dead in wall-to-wall pulls (and also because of me derping & causing wipes), BUT it is clearable without a healer, funnily enough. This party composition didn't have much sustain, if any, so we had to kill the Final Boss before the Double "Warm Glow" mechanic. It's basically a soft DPS check at that point. It probably didn't help that we also had a lot of shenanigans happening in the dungeon (I haven't touched BLM since Lv 80 in PvE as I purely leveled BLM to lv 90 through PvP, so I was basically relearning the rotation in that dungeon and dropping Enochian left and right LMAO). We had to take turns with our mitigations, and it turns out we were lacking just a bit more HP to clear it with our skill level -- but that was solved with HP potions -- yes, the items with a cooldown that you usually use when your healer is either dead or you're doing deep dungeon content. Turns out DRK really didn't need a healer to make things work. The entire run, if we include every wipe and running back + learning when to best mitigate + me messing up my BLM rotation, took around 67 minutes. If we just include the wall-to-walls + the pull where we killed the Final Boss (3 min boss fight), it took around 28 minutes.

An important thing to note, it is still doable without a healer healing and taking up a party slot. It only made me realize the effects of having a 3rd DPS more strongly here -- because a 3rd DPS could have given us more mitigation and made the "DPS check" gone by a lot smoother than what the healer that didn't heal could have done here.... which unfortunately only proves that healers are meant to raise the maximum survival threshold of the party, but the party doesn't necessarily need a healer healing to clear the dungeon - as is the case compared to ARR dungeons where you just simply can't outheal the damage due to how integral a healer is. In other words... healers really have became somewhat superfluous in terms of being necessary for a clear, at least for this dungeon.

This sounds like a fun experiment! I'm not surprised scholar ended up being the strongest healer in your no-heal challenge. They're just a good all around job.

While white mage tends to have this reputation as Fisher Price Baby's First Healer, I find it also is a good all around job. Holy is great ability! Haters gotta hate, you know?

But, I'm surprised that sage didn't shine more. Were their damage abilities just too weak? Perhaps they'd do better when paired with another tank besides dark knight.

I'd love to hear how GNB compares to the other tanks. Also, I think it'll be interesting to know what results you get with a third damage dealer.

Personally, I think it's bad you were able to complete The Dead Ends without any healers healing. This indicates something is seriously wrong with dungeon design in FFXIV.

No role should be unnecessary unless you out level the content. In my mind, the pendulum needs to swing the other way with greater healing and mitigation checks required to complete the content.

[Ath192]

Well....

ARR - Wanderer's Palace HM: The last boss uses doom that can only be cleansed by healing to full. The effect can be avoided if not looking at the boss when he casts the ability.
HW - The Vault: Charibert simply requires heals as his auto attack damage is constant on the tank throughout the fight. Probably still possible as WAR since you do have Equilibrium and Raw Intuition, plus Invuln going into this fight. I was really, really curious about this fight in particular.
SB - The Burn: Pretty much self-explanatory. Without heals, Rime Wreath spam, which is unavoidable will eventually kill the DPS jobs and the healer. Mist randomness can make dodging a little tricky. The tank might be able to sustain themselves, but will be rough taking the creature down once everyone else is dead.
ShB - Amaurot: Last boss is similar to Mist Dragon threat level.
EW - The Dead Ends: Need to avoid mechanics from first boss. If inflicted, not having Esuna will kill the player. Same can be said for any boss that uses a doom mechanic really. Skilled players won't have too much issue.


WAR healing is ridiculous, I'll back step a little bit and admit that for sure. They can even do heavy trash pulls without much assistance from the healer..

Here you go I synced and solo'd The Burn as WAR. Even the darling of SB dungeon difficulty is a former shadow of itself.

Full disclosure I wiped 3 times:
1. A careless raw intuition mistake on a double trash mob pull
2. And 2 times to figuring out how the hell to survive the add phase during the final boss because I couldn't meet the DPS check as solo WAR. Something that wouldn't have happened if I had even one more person doing something.

What ends up happening is you end up encased in ice and the boss starts casting a TB on you. Kind of cruel.

If this is soloable I'm sure every dungeon past this is too unless there's some incredibly cheap mechanic that forces multiple people being alive.

I just wished the games core design was more fun than this. We always have to go looking for scraps of difficulty here and there. And I don't want savage or Extreme level difficulty everywhere either. Just midcore is fine. If everything was around the difficulty level of original CLL I would be happy.

I even made several mistakes too, I didn't have to be perfect. For example during the first boss I had to reply to an email so I just end up standing in AOE's by accident and in the second boss I got rolled into the firewall for not paying attention to the carts.

Here is the video of the clear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIgp...Aries%27Corner

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Here you go I synced and solo'd The Burn as WAR. Even the darling of SB dungeon difficulty is a former shadow of itself.

Full disclosure I wiped 3 times:
1. A careless raw intuition mistake on a double trash mob pull
2. And 2 times to figuring out how the hell to survive the add phase during the final boss because I couldn't meet the DPS check as solo WAR. Something that wouldn't have happened if I had even one more person doing something.

What ends up happening is you end up encased in ice and the boss starts casting a TB on you. Kind of cruel.

If this is soloable I'm sure every dungeon past this is too unless there's some incredibly cheap mechanic that forces multiple people being alive.

I just wished the games core design was more fun than this. We always have to go looking for scraps of difficulty here and there. And I don't want savage or Extreme level difficulty everywhere either. Just midcore is fine. If everything was around the difficulty level of original CLL I would be happy.

I even made several mistakes too, I didn't have to be perfect. For example during the first boss I had to reply to an email so I just end up standing in AOE's by accident and in the second boss I got rolled into the firewall for not paying attention to the carts.

Here is the video of the clear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIgp...Aries%27Corner

Sounds more like a need to nerf the crap out of tank heals over anything really.



Even during arr I solod some stuff on PLD. First and 2nd bosses of halatali hm for instance.



Yes, healing and tanking needs to be adjusted. I hate how tanks are just dps with high HP and defense in this game. At least in arr there was more interaction with your defensive skills in raids..



I miss those days and it's why I just play a dps now, at least in raids. I was a tank main (PLD) from ARR launch until Stormblood. After that it's just been dps for the most part.

[Ath192]

Sounds more like a need to nerf the crap out of tank heals over anything really.



Even during arr I solod some stuff on PLD. First and 2nd bosses of halatali hm for instance.



Yes, healing and tanking needs to be adjusted. I hate how tanks are just dps with high HP and defense in this game. At least in arr there was more interaction with your defensive skills in raids..



I miss those days and it's why I just play a dps now, at least in raids. I was a tank main (PLD) from ARR launch until Stormblood. After that it's just been dps for the most part.

That's the mentality as to why this game is in the hole. Everyone thinks "Nerf" to me it sounds like they need to buff the difficulty of things so people have fun. If they didn't nerf things to the ground this wouldn't be possible.

I agree with you though, mostly. I just hate nerfs as a solution.