Easier? Dancer vs Summoner Debate

[NullPointerException]

In normal/easy content, any class is braindead. There is no damage requirement and you can just stay on the floor and nobody will bet an eye. You easily outperform most of duty finder by just staying alive and pressing some button.

In hard content? You know exactly when something shows up. Most classes have more to worry about than SMN. MNK maintaining optimal drift, SAM casting more things than SMN has to as melee, BLM turreting, MCH trying to put on carpal tunnel gloves. You get to keep your gems after death and get your burst ready at the 60s mark again anyways, but RDM loses their 2 minutes of gauge setup and will never be able to recover. You can figure out the entire P8S timeline in 2 pulls, assuming you know the fight. "finishing Garuda early to rush primal summon casts before phase change" is not a deep optimization, since adapting to timelines exist for literally every other class.

You use swiftcast on CD for damage, or save it for raise. What's the skill in 1 button that exists to make your life easier? When, in this tier, does a SMN actually hold out burst?

[WhimsicalPacifist]

Dancer is inherently more mechanically complex than Summoner. You have greater responsibilities with Devilment, Curing Waltz, the interrupt and making sure to not drift the steps.

On the other hand, summoner can be reduced to a single button macro and still parse purple. https://youtu.be/BId-R_GKsNc

We can also ask, which would you prefer: a 25% bottom percentile Summoner or a 25% bottom percentile Dancer?

[Ggwppino]

On the other hand, summoner can be reduced to a single button macro and still parse purple. https://youtu.be/BId-R_GKsNc

I think this concept is quite ungenerous. The fact that the combo can be done with a single button is due to the sole fact that it is a rotation without a proc. If a class doesn't have procs, then it can hypothetically have one-button rotation, whatever class it is. hypothetically a drg could also have one-button rotation, but it still has a respectable and highly optimizable rotation. (currently, because SQE could make another victim)

[ForsakenRoe]

I think this concept is quite ungenerous. The fact that the combo can be done with a single button is due to the sole fact that it is a rotation without a proc. If a class doesn't have procs, then it can hypothetically have one-button rotation, whatever class it is. hypothetically a drg could also have one-button rotation, but it still has a respectable and highly optimizable rotation. (currently, because SQE could make another victim)

If you could have any number of lines (instead of 15 as we're limited to), ie we're using a 3rd party macro writing software, you absolutely could have a macro that autoplays DNC for most of it's gameplay. Just throw a line saying /ac Bloodshower and /ac Fountainfall before every non-proc GCD to force it to 'try' to spend the procs, and if they aren't available it'll skip over them. The only part the macro couldn't do is the dances, since they're complete RNG, you'd have to do every step four times to make sure Tech was fully powered up (16 steps instead of 4 if you're a human and playing the game normally)

BRD though, 100% you could macro that because even if it procs, it's always the same reaction you take as a player: use bloodletter to not cap, use Pitch Perfect when you get it. Thinking about it I reckon the only class where you couldn't macro it to a high degree of efficiency like a TAS (using infinite-length macro software) would be DNC because of it's dances. Everything else would be pretty simple to make a TAS of. Even RDM, I think, now that you have to be actually trying to get imbalanced mana

[Ggwppino]

If you could have any number of lines (instead of 15 as we're limited to), ie we're using a 3rd party macro writing software, you absolutely could have a macro that autoplays DNC for most of it's gameplay. Just throw a line saying /ac Bloodshower and /ac Fountainfall before every non-proc GCD to force it to 'try' to spend the procs, and if they aren't available it'll skip over them. The only part the macro couldn't do is the dances, since they're complete RNG, you'd have to do every step four times to make sure Tech was fully powered up (16 steps instead of 4 if you're a human and playing the game normally)

BRD though, 100% you could macro that because even if it procs, it's always the same reaction you take as a player: use bloodletter to not cap, use Pitch Perfect when you get it. Thinking about it I reckon the only class where you couldn't macro it to a high degree of efficiency like a TAS (using infinite-length macro software) would be DNC because of it's dances. Everything else would be pretty simple to make a TAS of. Even RDM, I think, now that you have to be actually trying to get imbalanced mana

Actually the video show the single button combo with the game macro system (so with delay caused by not optimal use of queue system). With a 3rd party tools i think it possibile also attack without press any button for each class
Anyway, I dont want to say that smn is difficult (you can read my first post, second post in this thread), i mean that I don't find the observation of the single button combo correct, because it is a concept that can very well be attributed to any other no proc class, even much more operationally complex than the smn

[Valence]

If you could have any number of lines (instead of 15 as we're limited to), ie we're using a 3rd party macro writing software, you absolutely could have a macro that autoplays DNC for most of it's gameplay. Just throw a line saying /ac Bloodshower and /ac Fountainfall before every non-proc GCD to force it to 'try' to spend the procs, and if they aren't available it'll skip over them. The only part the macro couldn't do is the dances, since they're complete RNG, you'd have to do every step four times to make sure Tech was fully powered up (16 steps instead of 4 if you're a human and playing the game normally)

BRD though, 100% you could macro that because even if it procs, it's always the same reaction you take as a player: use bloodletter to not cap, use Pitch Perfect when you get it. Thinking about it I reckon the only class where you couldn't macro it to a high degree of efficiency like a TAS (using infinite-length macro software) would be DNC because of it's dances. Everything else would be pretty simple to make a TAS of. Even RDM, I think, now that you have to be actually trying to get imbalanced mana

A DNC macro wouldn't be able to spool up feather procs into burst phases, as well as knowing when to use Sabre Dance/gauge. A DNC macro wouldn't be able to deal with the little priority the job still has remaining during its burst (notably when to dance, or when to delay dances and how to manage gauge overcap).

A BRD macro wouldn't be able to deal with Pitch Perfect optimization, and even more so than DNC, would be totally left dumbfounded with every burst priority system. It would also be totally unable to deal with Apex use.

I don't know what is TAS though, is this third party software?

[Shiroe]

Dancer is inherently more mechanically complex than Summoner. You have greater responsibilities with Devilment, Curing Waltz, the interrupt and making sure to not drift the steps.

On the other hand, summoner can be reduced to a single button macro and still parse purple. https://youtu.be/BId-R_GKsNc

We can also ask, which would you prefer: a 25% bottom percentile Summoner or a 25% bottom percentile Dancer?

take any non proc class, throw in a macro at the start of a reset, and youll get a gud parse on easy content (that was normal mode, not savage..)

[Shiroe]

take any non proc class, throw in a macro at the start of a reset, and youll get a gud parse on easy content (that was normal mode, not savage..)

*start of reset (logs reset)..
... that said, macros might be more consistent at pressing buttons than players lol.., still doubt trying this not on a "logs reset" with OP gear, will bring the same conclusion

[Renascent]

Smn is easier and it's not even close.

[AmiRose]

Both are incredibly easy

SMN literally has no real rotation and is ridiculously straightforward. At most you need to weave a skill and plan around your ifrit mode due to longer cast-times/melee skills and garudas slipstream. Which is nothing compared to most classes.

DNC also has no real rotation and may have RNG but that is no solid reason to call them more difficult. A skill lightens up? Great, use it! Skill doesn't light up? Just press the one you just used. Oh you capped your feathers? Use one! Your gauge is getting full? Use a saber dance.

The only reason one could argue DNC might be more "difficult" than SMN is cause it needs to press 5 more buttons in the opener/burst window compared to SMN but that is a joke of a reason to say it has more complexity - if anything I'd say planning SMN ifrit mode correctly is harder but considering that mode has only 2 buttons to press, I still laugh if anyone tries to make me believe that holds complexity as well.

Both classes do nothing but pressing the same 1-4 buttons until the next burst and have high movement. Fun classes though, but doesn't take much skill to play.