Thought Experiment on AoE Buttons

[ty_taurus]

I generally dislike how AoE kits are handled in 14. I find "same as single target but aoe" abilities just boring and lazy. Deep dungeon aside, there's almost never a time where you want to hit just one enemy and not any others, at least there's no downside to hitting more than one. I honestly wouldn't mind your suggestion. That said, I do miss how DNC worked in ShB where flourish would proc your aoe and single target flourishes so you'd have to be in melee range for 2 GCD's but that's a different discussion. I really just don't like having 3 or 4 extra abilities that function identically to other buttons in your kit but are AoE. It's just button bloat.

That's kind of where I was going with the idea of instead of cutting Rising Windmill and Bloodshower, maybe make them a separate 1-2 combo with some sort of restriction, be it a cooldown, esprit, or whatnot, that you use to break away from your normal 1-2 + flourishes combo every so often. It wouldn't be connected to Flourish the action, but it would bring that melee aspect back into the job more frequently, and would give something else to break up the more slow periods between each burst.

[Renathras]

DNC is one of the Jobs in the game I don't play and don't know on even a cursory level (I'm still sore over it not being a Healer and so still semi-boycott it as in haven't leveled it), but I'm trying to get at what you're asking, so may I ask a question to see if I'm understanding your intent?

I'll use RDM as an example because everyone and their grandma's pet dog has played it and is at least passingly familiar with it.

RDM has a single target rotation consisting of (I'll omit the Ver-s):

Jolt 1/2, Fire, Stone, Thunder 1/3, Aero 1/3, Enchanted Reposte, Zwerchhau, Redoublement, Holy/Flare, Scorch, Resolution, with Fleche and Contre Sixte being oGCDs to weave throughout the rotation, and Enchanted Reprise for a minimum use movement tool.

RDM has a AOE rotation consisting of:

Impact, Thunder 2, Aero 2, Enchanted Moulinet, Holy/Flare, Scorch, Resolution, and Contre Sixte being an oGCD AOE attack (though you'd also use Fleche because why not)

Strictly speaking, one can see most of this rotation is very similar. So one could propose a system where all the AOE attacks are AOE attacks that do full damage to the first target, and the "extras" could be single target only. So, for example, let's PLAY PRETEND (this is a hypothetical for illustration purposes, NOT A PROPOSAL) and make a hypothetical RDM like so:

Impact does Jolt 2 damage to the first target and has falloff for additional targets. (Scatter can presumably do the same with Jolt 1)
Aero 2/Thunder 2 do Aero/Thunder 1/3 damage to the first and falloff equal to Aero/Thunder 2 current damage.
Enchnated Repost does 280 to the first target and 130 to all other targets (Moulinet's damage), and can be used 3 times in a row OR can be combo chained into Zwerchhau and Redoublement.
Fire/Stone remain unchanged.
Holy/Flare, Scorch, and Resolution remain unchanged.
Fleche and Contra Sixte remain unchanged.
Enchanted Reprise remains unchanged.

Remove Jolt 1/2 (or make Scatter and Impact those or ...whatever so that it's just ONE button on Hotbar, I don't care which name we land on)
Same with the Aero/Thunder line, they can just be 3 upgrades to the core (now always AOE) spells.

So what did I just do?

Well, you have your AOE rotation buttons. These are the same as the core of your single target rotation, just the single target rotation has a few additional buttons (Stone/Fire, Fleche, and Reprise) that wouldn't be used in AOE situations of 3+ targets. The buttons pull "double duty" in that you use the same AOE buttons as the "core" of your single target rotation, but it's simplified for burning trash or more hectic situations while the single-target rotation has the added buttons to make it more interesting to do for longer fights (bosses) and for more optimization.

Your single target rotation will be:

Jolt/Impact (whatever name we land on, this is the short cast non-elemental spell that generates Mana of both types) into Aero/Thunder, using Stone/Fire in place of Jolt for SINGLE TARGET ONLY (maybe it does the Acceleration Impact +50 damage if you use Impact instead for AOE), then you build up to your 50/50+1 mana and use Enchanted Reposte, Zwerchhau, Redoublement, Holy/Flare, Scorch, Resolution. Basically, you play just as you play single target now, and in single target, notice no difference since the AOE spells do the same damage to their primary target.

Your AOE rotation will be:

Impact into Aero/Thunder (swapping the current AOE order, but this is fine), and repeat this (no Stone/Fire) until you get 60/60+1, then Enchanted Reposte...Enchanted Reposte, Enchanted Reposte (three times), Holy/Flare, Scorch, Resolution. So you're using the single target rotation, just leaving out Stone/Fire procs/using the proc on Improve Impact, and using Reposte 3 times for the extra AOE damage (at a cost of 10/10 more Mana).

You've removed 3 buttons (not huge, but as I say, RDM already has a ton of overlap) and the AOE rotation is now the "simplified core" of the single target rotation.

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Another example, let's pick...hm, I'd pick WAR but the second hit of its 1-2 AOE does the Storm's Eye thing. NIN has a similar problem. Hm...how about Old PLD?

Suppose that the 1-2 of the melee combo were Total Eclipse -> Prominence. But for -3, you had the choice of Royal Authority or (old) Goring Blade. These would be DPS gains on a single target, but DPS losses on AOE. So in AOE situations, you'd hit 1-2-1-2-1-2, but for single target/boss fights, you would use 1-2-4-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-4-1-2-3-1-2-3; repeat. (and the caster bit and all that, but this is just for illustration simpler than the RDM example).

In other words: The AOE buttons would again be the "core" of the rotation, and you'd use them alone for AOE situations, but once you got to the single target situation (or probably less than 3 targets for Royal and less than 5 targets for Goring), Royal and Goring would become part of your single target/boss rotation since they'd be a DPS gain. But for the wall to wall pulls, you're only worried about the 1-2 since the -3/4 would be DPS losses for all those targets, so you'd just clip your rotation short to that "core".

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So what does this accomplish?

Well, it reduces button bloat (for Jobs like PLD, that struggle is real), while still allowing the AOE rotation to feel distinct (-ish) from the single-target one, and while still allowing the single-target rotation to feel more involved and advanced. It also allows keeping those single target buttons for use in situations where you'd need to grab a lone enemy from a group (in RDM's case, some additional change would be needed like Fire/Stone being available if out of combat, or maybe available all the time but do less damage than Jolt without the proc with the proc increasing their potency to the current form - whatever, it doesn't matter, this isn't a proposal, it's just an illustration) in Deep Dungeons since you're generally not going to conduct the ENTIRE FIGHT right next to the enemy, you just need 1-3 hits to pull them and maybe smack them a few times as they close into melee with you. (Not to mention, as many abilities already do AOE splash damage like Circle of Scorn or VerHoly/Flare/Scorch/Resolution, you'd be pulling other mobs using them anyway)

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Is that kind of what you're suggesting here?

Again, I don't know DNC, so I'm not sure if it is or not, I'm asking if that's what you're going for or if it's perhaps something else...?

[CelestiCer]

1st - Turn all Area-of-Effect skills into " Circles ", all of them... Once Square has done that? then...

[ty_taurus]

Is that kind of what you're suggesting here?

More or less, yeah. I think there are different ways you could go about it per job, but essentially the goal is to either prune off buttons that exist exclusively for the purpose of AoE or Single Target (Depending on what action we're talking about. Like for RDM we're talking about merging Verthunder/aero II with III, but on DNC, you wouldn't want their core rotation to be a point-blank melee combo) or merge two buttons that have the same purpose but are just single target or AoE versions of the same things (Foul/Xenoglossy, Fester/Painflare, etc.)

On the RDM example, one step I'd take further would be to add Verstone II and Verfire II as AoE upgrades to their current forms (something I foresee happening in the future anyway), but in order to still have something that's not AoE for the purposes of pulling in deep dungeons and whatnot, perhaps Verstone I and Verfire I are the "base" that you can cast at any time. They're single-target and weaker than Impact, but have no cast time and thus can be used on the move instead of Reprise, and are swapped to their AoE, more potent upgrades when you have your normal stone/fire procs. Or perhaps we do something like Acceleration makes your next spell not only instant, but stronger and single target, though that makes it strictly a DPS resource, though if you do both that and the stone/fire I thing, then you still have stone/fire I for mobility.

Like you say, RDM already doesn't really invest heavily into a single target vs AoE dichotomy as heavily as, say, BLM or SAM do, so it's not as noticeable of a gain there.

On PLD, I'd do it a little differently. Your standard 1-2-3 could instead be Fast Blade > Total Eclipse > Royal Authority with Prominence being a replacement for Goring Blade. So in single target, you'd still go 1-2-3 or 1-2-4, but in AoE, your combo is 2-4, where Total Eclipse's non-comboed potency is your normal AoE potency, and the combo increases that to current Riot Blade's with falloff damage. Also, Holy Circle would just be an upgrade of Holy Spirit (it also looks significantly better animation-wise anyway). Though it may not matter as much to need a single-target combo starter on tanks thanks to Shield Lob and its equivalents for the other tanks, so your path would probably work too. These cases would keep PLD as-is for both single-target and AoE in terms of gameplay.

Another example I can give is a little of how I imagined it for DRK...

There are a lot of obvious mergers outside of their normal combo like Flood of Shadow/Edge of Shadow and Bloodspiller/Quietus, but as for their normal combo, what we have currently is:
Hard Strike > Siphon Strike > Souleater for single target
Or
Unleash > Stalwart Soul for AoE.

What you could do to make it a little more interesting is creating a sort of branching combo that looks like...
Hard Strike > Unleash > Souleater where Unleash and Souleater restores HP when comboed this way and perhaps gives you a Storm's Eye type benefit
Or
Hard Strike > Stalwart Soul > Siphon Strike where Stalwart Soul restore MP when comboed this way.

Meanwhile AoE offers:
Unleash > Stalwart Soul where Stalwart Soul restores MP when comboed out of Unleash
Or
Stalwart Soul > Unleash where Unleash restores HP when comboed out of Stalwart Soul and provides that Storm's Eye buff.

The Storm's Eye type buff is there because MP is a DPS gain over HP, but you still have the HP route that you can use for buff upkeep and in tight situations like large trash enemies for better sustain. This route doesn't actually save DRK any buttons, but it makes their combo game a lot more interesting. I won't speak for DRK players if that approach would be liked or not necessarily, but my point is more that you can be creative with the different parts of combos.

And I've said this before on the healers, but simply adding either a form of conditional utility to AoE buttons, or buff upkeep would very easily make their AoE spells useable in single target, like some condition where Holy III speeds up your lily generation while having its potency made neutral to Glare III under those conditions, or Art of War being a Storm's Eye type crit buff to upkeep, and these types of approaches can vary between healers ranging from regular usage to optional/situational usage depending on the healer. But we've been there already.

I will say, I would like to consciously try and preserve really strong and iconic single target or AoE animations as much as is feasible. Like I wouldn't want to just cut Fell Cleave and have Steel Cyclone be your only gauge spender because people like Fell Cleave a lot, so perhaps simply adjusting the animation to be a cone AoE while retaining its impact would be the better option there.