Tomestones.. Again.. for a relic..

[Melorie]

I feel like there is a certain social aspect of a guided grind where everyone is working towards the same thing that "now I can grind what I want!" simply doesn't have. I mean, it is nice that you can do things such as Deep Dungeon or maps in order to get your relic, still I wish they could have made it so that these activities are included inside the relic chain without being as vague as "get tomes". My biggest social interactions in the game happened with the initial stages of relic grind or some other stupid grind (like Yokai fate event), there's a certain quality in doing things with everyone else and everyone chasing the same thing that was a core aspect of going after something in a game.

There's something about the game guiding you that I actively enjoyed towards the relic process. It wasn't always a 100% fun experience, but that's beyond the point because nothing is ever 100% fun all the time. I don't really see where's the appeal of FFXIV simplying putting stuff where you can "complete doing whatever", the game is far from being a sandbox with a good deal of options at the level cap. If you choose to complete it by doing roulettes you'll most likely end up doing brayflox longstop, alexander and crystal tower for an entire week.

This huge aversion to the game saying "hey, DO X" like it's some sort of crime sounds so dramatic to me. "THE GAME IS FORCING ME TO DO X THINGY!!!" uh gurl, have you ever played games? That's, like, what they do. Also, in FFXIV it is sooo easy to simply ignore whatever they are proposing regardless, you are not obligated to do anything besides msq.

I also honestly don't understand the "not everything has to be a grind", that everyone loves to throw around because pretty much nothing is? Not everything has to be something extremely easy to catch-up just because you don't have time to play the game at the moment. When the game presented me with something I dislike, I just wait till it nerfs it and whoever actually want to give it their time are free to do so. Unless we're talking about some big achievements, almost nothing in the game is a grind, the only thing that WAS in fact a grind was... well, the relic. A casual grind, even. Otherwise, the game simply lacks timesinks or anything that requires investiment besides the MSQ and most people play MMOs to feel a sense of progression and not simply, logging in and catching up as quickly as possible.

Imagine playing a game where the current content of the game is tailored towards people that don't want to sink any time at all into it and want, in fact, to play other games. Makes no sense. If you don't have time to play it, come back when it's nerfed and get your weapon.

[RyuDragnier]

EX mount drops, getting that one piece of weekly loot you want from the current Alliance Raid, gathering mats for crafting in general, getting enough scrips to buy materia or buy even more mats for crafting, raising levels of the alt jobs you want to use, getting trusts maxed out, gearing up every job you want to use (including crafters/gatherers), Shared FATEs, leveling tribes, etc etc. There are a LOT of grinds in this game, so I don't see how anybody can say we have barely any grinds, when there's quite a few.

[seolhyun]

Most people in Eureka just AFKed and let others spawn stuff so they didn't have to do anything. Not really seeing the difference here.

the difference was:
new content
new areas to explore
new actions to play with
new progression system
not running the same roulettes as the last 3 xpacs
biggest raid ever at the end
relic armor
pazuzu
hundreds of ppl killing NMs

now i can queue roulettes or do hunt trains. same thing i have done all xpac bc there is nothing else to do. the only replayable battle content is queueing for raids where u fight a boss in a tiny circle with comically large hit boxes.

[DiaDeem]

the difference was:
new content
new areas to explore
new actions to play with
new progression system
not running the same roulettes as the last 3 xpacs
biggest raid ever at the end
relic armor
pazuzu
hundreds of ppl killing NMs

now i can queue roulettes or do hunt trains. same thing i have done all xpac bc there is nothing else to do. the only replayable battle content is queueing for raids where u fight a boss in a tiny circle with comically large hit boxes.

I don't mind the step too much, and I think there's positives to it, but can't deny that you've got a point there.

[SweetPete]

It’s gonna be the same people on here in 7.0 relic saying the grind is to much and they need to nerf it. People just aren’t satisfied. It’s quite funny actually. I don’t think the devs will ever satisfy even most of the player base.

[Melorie]

EX mount drops, getting that one piece of weekly loot you want from the current Alliance Raid, gathering mats for crafting in general, getting enough scrips to buy materia or buy even more mats for crafting, raising levels of the alt jobs you want to use, getting trusts maxed out, gearing up every job you want to use (including crafters/gatherers), Shared FATEs, leveling tribes, etc etc. There are a LOT of grinds in this game, so I don't see how anybody can say we have barely any grinds, when there's quite a few.

I mean, most of these grinds gets trivial at some point (perhaps except maxing your trusts? I'm not even sure why people would do that but whatever) or have another solution in which you can achiev the same ilvl without going through them. For me the only grinds the game currently offer in order to unlock/get something are shared fates (which will eventually be *much* easier when BLU 80 and 90 releases), the crazy achievements for titles/minions/mounts and the relic quests with it's respective chains. If you are casual and can't play the game much or can't put in the effort to get these things now, they'll be easier and cheaper down the line regardless. The biggest and unavoidable grind of the game is the MSQ, after that everything with enough patience will become somewhat easier and nerfed. There's literally no reason for them to be easy at the moment, for people that are currently investing time into the game.

I suppose that if you truly want to play every single job, gear every job, get the current patch gear for EVERYTHING then the chances are you're a completionist which means you're bound to find grind in every game you go. There's zero reason to make content based thinking about people that want everything in the game, given that they're a minority. If anything I'm all for making the relic easier and easier when you do it more and more for more and different classes, but still... What I meant with the lack of grind is that FFXIV is in general pretty grindless if you're a casual player. You will never be locked out of doing anything that's casual in the game because of your gear, you can pop-up and buy whatever crafted gear is available and do whatever you want from the get-go. You can cap out your tomes pretty easily by not sinking much time in the game weekly at all, and level up your jobs a bit every day without wasting more of one hour of your time (a leveling+tribes goes a long way). So yeah, it is a grindless game.

[Jojoya]

I also honestly don't understand the "not everything has to be a grind", that everyone loves to throw around because pretty much nothing is?

True, not everything is a grind though things that are less enjoyable tend to end up called grinds because the player is not having fun doing it and feel like it's taking up too much of their time they could be doing other things.

But let's flip the question around: why should anything have to be a grind? I'm not talking about just handing out things for the asking. There should still be effort involved. But is it really necessary that something require dozens if not hundreds of hours of time investment? It's a game, not a job.

"Well if they don't want to spend the time, then can skip the reward." Yes, I agree with that.

There are a lot of things I dislike and so I skip doing them. I did one ARR relic and one HW relic for the story. I totally skipped the SB relic because I hated Eureka from its release and while I did end up doing it in ShB with my FC just to see the story, I ignored the relic grind. I started on the ShB relic, got the first two upgrades done, decided I didn't enjoy Bozja any more than I enjoyed Eureka and quit it. I haven't really started on the EW relic yet because I've been focused on doing other things but for now I expect I'll get at least one done through the 6.35 content because I get to choose what I do. It won't be forcing me into content I don't enjoy. We'll have to see what the remainder of it is like before I can say if I'll finish off this one like I did the ARR and HW relics.

"Grind gives a sense of accomplishment". I'd respond with "wouldn't spending the time on something meaningful in life give you a greater sense of accomplishment?". I went through the Pteranodon grind in Shadowbringers. Now I have a mount I rarely use. I'm happy that I met a goal I set for myself but I don't feel like I'm a better person for having it done it. Some of the things I'm working on in real life right now that have taken a fraction of the time are giving me a real sense of accomplishment in comparison because they are leading to life improvements for myself and for others.

I think people put a little too much emphasis on what they do in a game at times. Why is probably different for each but I fear for too many it's because they feel incapable and powerless to achieve what they want in life so they turn to games to feel capable and powerful.

In the end, games should be fun and not feel like your time is being wasted. In other games in the past, players have ended up feeling that their time was wasted with the long grinds for rewards that were useless soon after. SE seems to be trying to tiptoe around that pit to find a spot that leaves the majority at least content with the result. They do listen to feedback and do make changes in response to it on occasion. So for this grind they listened to players who hated being forced into specific content in Stormblood and Shadowbringers. They've given us a grind where the player gets to control how much or how little effort they put into it.

And of course those who prefer a grind are now complaining because they took the easy path to completion instead creating a grind to their liking.

The devs just can't win with us.

[Melorie]

"Grind gives a sense of accomplishment". I'd respond with "wouldn't spending the time on something meaningful in life give you a greater sense of accomplishment?". I went through the Pteranodon grind in Shadowbringers. Now I have a mount I rarely use. I'm happy that I met a goal I set for myself but I don't feel like I'm a better person for having it done it. Some of the things I'm working on in real life right now that have taken a fraction of the time are giving me a real sense of accomplishment in comparison because they are leading to life improvements for myself and for others.

I think people put a little too much emphasis on what they do in a game at times. Why is probably different for each but I fear for too many it's because they feel incapable and powerless to achieve what they want in life so they turn to games to feel capable and powerful.

In the end, games should be fun and not feel like your time is being wasted. In other games in the past, players have ended up feeling that their time was wasted with the long grinds for rewards that were useless soon after. SE seems to be trying to tiptoe around that pit to find a spot that leaves the majority at least content with the result. They do listen to feedback and do make changes in response to it on occasion. So for this grind they listened to players who hated being forced into specific content in Stormblood and Shadowbringers. They've given us a grind where the player gets to control how much or how little effort they put into it.

And of course those who prefer a grind are now complaining because they took the easy path to completion instead creating a grind to their liking.

The devs just can't win with us.

Sorry, but your argument is kinda ridiculous and even offensive. People that enjoy grinding aren't necessarily trying to get an achievement in a game they don't have in their own life or are trying to feel better than others. This has very, very little to do with this. Fact is, when you sink time into something and feel like you're doing effort to get something, you automatically create a memory and an experience around that thing, that item. I did the entire Zeta questline with my boyfriend and it is a memory we both have together, even in the parts that weren't as fun. I can't say the Yo-kai watch fate grind was FUN, but I had memes and conversations with my FC for months because we were, everyone, at the same map, doing something ridiculous and creating a memory regarding that stupid experience.

Also, every single game is a timesink. If don't want to feel that you "wasted time" I don't know why you would play a game, that argument leads to nowhere. The whole "games should be fun, not wasted time" is a vague response, the concept of whatever is "fun" is arbitrary and there's zero point in discussing it. Some people actually find doing roulettes and getting the same half dozen dungeons because of their terrible roulette system and almost never ever playing a single current-expansion-content uber "fun". Some people find ocean fishing "fun" (I do). Some people find that setting a goal that will take a bit up of their time and their focus on that particular thing is fun.

You can't really say what FUN is. Not even Square. What I do know is that in order to search for something FUN, Square should've given at least a new suggestion for players. Saying: keep doing what you've been doing since the start of the expansion is the least fun option of all of the possible options. In an MMO, especially a themepark with a strictly linear and vertical progression such as FFXIV, fun also means something different in which the community can actually engage. Even when the relic step was "do this stupid crystal tower if you wanna avoid DR", you had people making parties and working together towards that stupid goal, that's fun in a MMO for me. Now it's all the same as it was before the patch. No change, no suggestion, nothing. So yeah I understand why people feel like this is a lazy solution for a relic quests, that even with all it's faults, used to be something that bonded people.

[AurisNix]

I dont mind the fact that this is easy to get, but in all means it was also a lazy lazy approach, 1500 tomes is also grind but is a boring grind at best you just do dailies for 3 days or just do train hunts (wich also boring), the devs went from point A to C without trying a B mid point, i dont think its necessary to have a disgusting Grind (Delubrum PTSD), but they could have just add specific tasks to get the relic do this dungeon with the weapon equipped or complete Abyssos with the weapon, etc something as easy as 1500 tomes but with more creativity, and honestly i was hoping at least the relic will engage more activity in the variant dungeon cuz holy damn thats a very dead ass content that needs at least a quick fix. 4 months between patchs for more development but i find EW patchs very "boring" so far i dont see anything engaging enough, this relic will just be a glam by the end of the patch wich is also a very bad decision this should be at least a BiS weapon give it more use for raiding and stuff

[Stormpeaks]

Lmao, now that was a good one

I think people put a little too much emphasis on what they do in a game at times. Why is probably different for each but I fear for too many it's because they feel incapable and powerless to achieve what they want in life so they turn to games to feel capable and powerful.

Sorry to you guys who want to accomplish something in game, Jojoya decided that if you want to accomplish things in game its because you are powerless and incapable to achieve things in real life, and you are coping by wanting some content in a video game that isnt doing 2 hours of hunt train

In the end, games should be fun and not feel like your time is being wasted.

I have a good solution for you, since you talk so much about real life, stop playing video games and focus on that, if games are a waste of time to you.