AST as a support-focused healer

[ty_taurus]

I wanted to redirect the conversation going on in the Summary of healer issues forum over here to avoid going on too deeply on the AST tangent. Long story short, I've brought up before the idea of an AST rework that tries to make it into a healer that functions alongside our other healers, but redirects much of the focus away from GCD DPS.

I spent some time hammering out a more detailed description of the kind of buff-oriented rotation that I'm envisioning to better articulate this concept, but this is not the only possible way a playstyle like this can work. It does still involve some amount of direct DPS, but considerably less than than what we have currently. This is not all of the tools in the arsenal, but just ones that focus on this new rotation concept. With that in mind, I'll break down the two segments. As usual, potencies are merely placeholder.

DPS Tools

Stargazer: OGCD - Applies an effect to target party member or self. While in effect, anytime a spell or weaponskill deals damage to an enemy, 1 of your Lodestars detonates on the first enemy hit by the respective spell or weaponskill, dealing damage with a potency of 150 for the first enemy and 50% less for all other enemies within 8 yalms of the target. Becomes End Stargazer while active. Has a recast timer of 2 seconds.

Lodestars are gained through card actions as listed below.

End Stargazer: OGCD - Ends the effects of Stargazer. Has a recast timer of 2 seconds.

Fall Malefic II or Winter Malefic: GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 250. Is largely the same. If the target is afflicted with Mark of the Knave, decreases the target’s physical damage dealt by 10% for 10 seconds.

Gravity II: GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 125 to target and all enemies nearby it. Is largely the same. If the target is afflicted with Mark of the Knave, potency is increased by 100% and decreases the target’s magical damage dealt by 10% for 10 seconds.

Asterism: GCD - Instantly grants 2 Lodestars to self. Has a GCD recast timer of 20 seconds with 2 charges.

Premonition: GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 250 to all enemies within 15 yalms and afflicts them Premonition for 15 seconds. Has a GCD recast timer of 40 seconds with 2 charges.

Earthly Star: OGCD - No notable change, but wanted to list it as a part of the DPS rotation.

Card Actions

Draw: GCD - Grants self 3 stacks of Draw. Instant cast and is a 1.5 second GCD action. Cannot be used if there are no arcanum in the deck. Additionally generates 1 Lodestar (max 6).

Minor Arcana: GCD - Grants 1 use of a Minor Arcana. Instant cast and is a 1.5 second GCD action. Cannot be used if there are no minor arcanum in the deck. Additionally generates 1 Lodestar (max 6).

Solar Arcanum: GCD - While under the effects of Draw, changes randomly to The Balance or The Bole; each arcanum can only appear if it is in the deck. Playing either arcanum removes that card from the deck and puts it in play. A maximum of 3 cards can be in play at a time. While under the effects of Major Arcana, changes to Lord of Crowns.

Lunar Arcanum: GCD - While under the effects of Draw, changes randomly to The Arrow or The Ewer; each arcanum can only appear if it is in the deck. Playing either arcanum removes that card from the deck and puts it in play. A maximum of 3 cards can be in play at a time. While under the effects of Major Arcana, changes to Lady of Crowns.

Stellar Arcanum: GCD - While under the effects of Draw, changes randomly to The Spear or The Spire; each arcanum can only appear if it is in the deck. Playing either arcanum removes that card from the deck and puts it in play. A maximum of 3 cards can be in play at a time. While under the effects of Major Arcana, changes to Knave of Crowns.

The Balance: GCD - Puts The Balance in play and consumes 1 stack of Draw. Celestial Opposition effect: Increases determination by 3%. Instant cast and is a 1.5 second GCD action. Additionally generates 1 Lodestar (max 6).

The Bole: GCD - Puts The Bole in play and consumes 1 stack of Draw. Celestial Opposition effect: Decreases damage taken by 10%. Instant cast and is a 1.5 second GCD action. Additionally generates 1 Lodestar (max 6).

The Arrow: GCD - Puts The Arrow in play and consumes 1 stack of Draw. Celestial Opposition effect: Increases direct hit by 3%. Instant cast and is a 1.5 second GCD action. Additionally generates 1 Lodestar (max 6).

The Ewer: GCD - Puts The Ewer in play and consumes 1 stack of Draw. Celestial Opposition effect: Increases HP recovered via healing actions by 10%. Instant cast and is a 1.5 second GCD action. Additionally generates 1 Lodestar (max 6).

The Spear GCD - Puts The Spear in play and consumes 1 stack of Draw. Celestial Opposition effect: Increases critical hit by 3%. Instant cast and is a 1.5 second GCD action. Additionally generates 1 Lodestar (max 6).

The Spire: GCD - Puts The Spire in play and consumes 1 stack of Draw. Celestial Opposition effect: decreases spell cast times by 1.5 seconds. Instant cast and is a 1.5 second GCD action. Additionally generates 1 Lodestar (max 6).

Lord of Crowns: GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 250 to all enemies within 15 yalms. Instant cast and is a 1.5 second GCD action. Additionally generates 1 Lodestar (max 6).

Lady of Crowns: GCD - Heals with a potency of 250 to self and all nearby party members 15 yalms. Instant cast and is a 1.5 second GCD action. Additionally generates 1 Lodestar (max 6).

Knave of Crowns: GCD - Applies Mark of the Knave to all enemies within 15 yalms Instant cast and is a 1.5 second GCD action. Additionally generates 1 Lodestar (max 6).

Reverse: OGCD - Swaps the arcanum on Solar Arcanum, Lunar Arcanum, and Stellar Arcanum if the other arcanum is still in the deck. Can only be used while under the effects of Draw. Recast time of 1 second.

Shuffle: GCD - Returns all used arcanum and minor arcana back into their respective decks. Has a cast time of 3 seconds, and a GCD recast timer of 30 seconds with 2 charges. Additionally generates 2 Lodestar (max 6).

Celestial Opposition: GCD - Inflicts Stop on all enemies within 15 yalms for 4 seconds; if any enemies are affected by Premonition, deals damage with a potency of 250 to them. Additionally applies the effects of all arcanum in play to self and all party members in range for 15 seconds. Instant cast and is a 1.5 second GCD action. Additionally generates 1 Lodestar (max 6).

Celestial Intersection: OGCD - Grants an effect to a target party member or self. When receiving the effects of the arcanum from Celestial Opposition, increases the effects by 100%. Recast timer of 15 seconds.

Summary
In short, there would still be some amount of direct DPS that this iteration of AST would need to engage with, but a chunk of that is taken out as players optimize playing their offensive cards and Lord of Crowns at the minimum every 30 seconds. With the other cards being utility based, there's more flexibility in whether you choose to use those or not. This is also accomplished in a way that doesn't involve a large amount of single target swapping as well, as the only single target effects you'd be working with offensively are setting up Stargazer and placing Celestial Intersection on someone before applying your buffs. Everything else is just playing to your gauge really.

To address the issue of buff totals, the card effects would largely be represented with the gauge exclusively as well as their associated actions on the hotbar, and Celestial Opposition compiles the arcanum effects into 1 singluar buff whenever you apply your cards to the party.

The use of Solar Arcanum, Lunar Arcanum, and Stellar Arcanum really helps to both condense hotbar load into a finer number of actions while also giving the player control over their buffs. It creates a little minigame that does share some similarities with Mudras, but would feel quite different to use as you have to figure out which of your offensive cards were drawn and use Reverse as needed to ensure you get your 3 attack cards at once.

There are still some kinks I do need to work on in order for this concept to work as smoothly as possible, such as figuring out how to avoid raid groups waiting on Shuffle's cooldown in a way that doesn't feel intrusive, but the idea is there, and as I mentioned before, I really don't think this is the only way a concept like this can exist.

Does this do a better job at communicating this type of idea? Does it work?

EDIT: Made an adjustment to the lodestars and card actions so that the lodestars are 150 potency, and all card actions have a 1.5 second GCD timer after realizing there was a flaw. This makes all card actions DPS neutral rather than some being gains.

[Aravell]

Honestly, this concept looks quite good to me personally. My only concern would be that this would slow down AST's gameplay by quite a significant amount because a large portion of their OGCD kit is shifted to the GCD. Although the increased thought required could keep players busy still, kind of hard to say without some hands-on gameplay. It's quite a solid concept though, could be nice for the people who hate spamming damage spells and prefer to support their teammates.

[ty_taurus]

Honestly, this concept looks quite good to me personally. My only concern would be that this would slow down AST's gameplay by quite a significant amount because a large portion of their OGCD kit is shifted to the GCD. Although the increased thought required could keep players busy still, kind of hard to say without some hands-on gameplay. It's quite a solid concept though, could be nice for the people who hate spamming damage spells and prefer to support their teammates.

That's a very good point and a part of why I went with the cards being 1.5 second GCDs. You could potentially need to weave 3 Reverses in there to get all 3 offensive buffs, and while you wouldn't need all 3 Reverses for each buff burst in a 30 second period, you are doing that potentially twice in 30 seconds. Not to mention you have the minor arcana you can use as well. Originally, I had the mindset that Stargazer would grant 2 stacks that detonate a Lodestar per use on a 2 second cooldown so you'd be weaving that very often to keep your Lodestars circulating, but I also worry that could get really sticky with the way this iteration turned out.

The thing is though that it's something very different to any other job we have thus far, so it's very difficult to tell exactly how fast or slow it would feel without being able to test it. If I were one of the combat designers, I would absolutely be testing the concept in engine to try and make sure that it doesn't feel too slow.

And also now that I say that, I realize the cards being 1.5 second GCDs also makes them DPS gains with lodestars instead of neutral which enforces the utility cards be used each 30 seconds, which was not the goal... Gonna need to go back and rethink something there now. Just goes to show how finnicky it can be to create something that fits properly.

[Jkap_Goat]

give me the old AST 3.2 or AST 4.0

[Rongway]

Fall Malefic II or Winter Malefic

"Fall" is a direction or position, the opposite of exaltation, not the season of autumn.

[ty_taurus]

"Fall" is a direction or position, the opposite of exaltation, not the season of autumn.

Interesting tidbit. I assumed seasons because seasons are also an aspect of cosmology in a sense.

[ASkellington]

So a few things to note:

1. Without pruning of skills, you're adding 3 more abilities (3 separate ways to Draw so to speak), for cards on top of another 2 (one to reverse the effect and another to shuffle) plus 3 new abilities. Feels like a bit too much. (Assuming that I'm reading this right) Add in to the fact that they're akin to Mudras (likely in how they feel and not function since you aren't mixing to make a Raiton/Doton) is a big no at least for me. Mudras are my main issue with NIN as it stands.
   
2. I still don't see why you want to keep with the idea of GCD cards. The problem is not whether or not the cards are on GCD but the amount of targeting. This does reduce targeting, but so does removing the seals system as a whole as that's what started the huge amount of targeting in the first place (rushing out to get 3 seals for Divination and now for Astrodyne).
   
3. CI and Stargazer could have easily just been a repurposed Synastry one or the other.
   
4. CO being a Stop is an interesting idea. Funnily enough I was thinking it odd that AST doesn't have a Stop ability.

Nit pick but Earthly Star is not a DPS tool. Especially if you don't count Macrocosmos.

I also don't understand your fixation on the GCD cards. As an AST main, I don't want it and while I think the idea is cool from a conception stand point, the only positive I see here is that I get some of the OG cards back with a major negative of a Mudra-like system I didn't ask for and didn't want. I can't say if it would kill my interest in AST, but it likely would make me consider switching to a new job.

In short:

• I don't like the slowing of the APM on AST. The high APM is what drew me to the class along with diverse cards. I don't feel like I should have to have one or the other especially since PvP doesn't have this issue, and neither did SB AST.
  
• Having 3 draws for each seal and a way to reverse it mitigates RNG more, but I feel would add too much on the hot bar, even with the removal and/or revamp of some abilities. I think 2 would be slightly better (even with the added RNG) one for DPS and one for support. I'm going to assume you would prune abilities that AST doesn't use currently to make room and fix that issue.
  
• I feel like the new cards and lodestar mechanic seems to be an AST version of Lillies and Toxicon? Kinda? Its not really something I want to see on AST.

All that said, this does seem more clear on what you want or rather how you envision your idea of what AST could be.

That said I am confused on how Shuffle works. My guess is that you spend all cards (minor/major) and then must press a button to reset? If so that seems like an unnecessary stem like turning a card from Major to Minor back in the early patches of 5.0 which was a major pain point for AST.

I am also confused on what you mean by CI and this new ability Stargazer "granting an effect" do you mean a card effect? Or also something like Exalt/CI (current).

Ultimately, I would say this is an interesting design choice, but not one I would want to play depending on how the new cards feel.

[ty_taurus]

So a few things to note:

Before anything else, I can say I respect if you're not interested in the concept. I can't make you like it if you're turned off by it, but I do think it's also something that's difficult to actually gauge how it would feel without testing because it's so different to what we're familiar with. And that's the big flaw we're all faced with is we can't prototype anything, so there's a limit to how much we can accomplish on paper ideas shared on a forum. How fast or slow this would feel in practice is really hard to gauge without being able to put it in your hands. I also don't want AST to be slow, so it's a concept I would regularly adjust in a prototyping environment to get a good pacing feel. But regardless, I appreciate that you seem like you'd give it a chance if it were real anyway.

There are a few reasons as to why I fixate on the GCD cards. I want more distinct playstyles for each healer. What is the point of having multiple jobs if they're 4 different variations of the flavor for chocolate? We've talked a lot about DPS on healers, and while I do not agree or really sympathize with your standard Sylphie mindset of "I'll just stand here and look pretty" or the Ren mindset of "Just leave 1 healer in the trashcan", I can sympathize with healers who are not a fan of the heavy DPS mentality every healer adheres to, and I believe there should be a healer that tries to provide a fun and engaging playstyle that moves away from offense as much as possible while still feeling good in solo environments. There is a limit to how much you can do this given how this game is designed, but it is possible, but the only way this can ever work in FFXIV is to create a healer who still contributes DPS, but filters it through some form of support, but that support also has to be consistent support. Mitigation and healing are only as needed as a fight demands, which just isn't all that much in this game.

So in order to accomplish this, we either need to rework an existing healer to fulfill this playstyle, or add a new healer. But we just got SGE this past expansion, and it's identity is defined by being a highly aggressive healer--the opposite of this mindset. Realistically, assuming we even ever get another healer, it'll be another 7 years---maybe 5 years if we skip a double-DPS expansion--before we get a 5th. Meanwhile we have 4 healers that are starving for individuality, which is why I lean toward reworking each to have a more distinct playstyle. Of the healers we have, AST is undeniably the one that matches this class fantasy the closest.

All that said, it's also a justifiable route to say that no healer should be designed to cater to that type of playstyle, and anyone who doesn't like the heavy direct DPS frequency of the healers can deal with it or leave. At the end of the day, it's the designers who decide what playstyles they do and do not want in their game. No one is obligated to appeal to any given audience. Or we could leave the cards off the GCD and give them other forms of support GCD actions in addition to the cards, but that would be even more actions and would require a more intense culling of actions to properly fit.

To clarify on some of the details...

• On button pruning, combining Benefic and Esuna is an option, or upgrading Benefic to Benefic II. Since we're effectively performing a mini-divination every 30 seconds, there's an argument for removing Divination here, potentially moving further away from the 2 minute meta. Astrodyne could be removed. Synastry could if not be removed, maybe combined with Stargazer. Redraw and Undraw are unneeded for this build. In general, having 3 hotspots for all your cards is there to condense actions while also providing more control over the cards and replace Play and Crown Play, naturally. So I do think there's room here.
• The effect in those descriptions for Stargazer and CI is what I explained after that sentence. I just worded it oddly. Stargazer is simply, whoever has it (be they you or someone else) it's that person's spells and weaponskills that cause your lodestars to detonate. You're designating who is going to use your lodestar stacks essentially, or leave it on yourself during solo play. There's some optimization though to taking it off and making sure your lodestars are dumped while buffs are active though, so it's not quite like Dance Partner or Kardia which you generally want 100% uptime on. CI is just, whoever you put it on, their buffs are doubled in power when you use CO.
• Lodestars are in a sense like lilies because they are a DPS refund tool, but the application of them is quite different. Regardless, I really don't see a way around having some type of refund system to allow support GCD actions to not be completely ignored in favor of direct DPS. It would be very wonky to try and balance a healer that only provided % damage buffs and no or little personal DPS of their own (in group play anyway). This makes the support still emanate from you, but would generally be triggered by others.
• Shuffle exists for two reasons: 1. it gives structure to your gameplay. You can only do a triple offensive party buff once per 30 seconds, and 2. it also makes it so that you aren't just trying to stack 3 Balances or so by enforcing the one-of-each-card aspect.

And I've said it before but it's worth saying again that there are more ways this concept could work. Mine isn't the only way, it's just the best that I've come up with at the time having gone through several iterations prior. And I'm just 1 person, so I'm not bouncing ideas off anyone else. I'm sure there's an even better way to approach this out there.

[ASkellington]

There are a few reasons as to why I fixate on the GCD cards. I want more distinct playstyles for each healer. What is the point of having multiple jobs if they're 4 different variations of the flavor for chocolate?

The issue I have with healers being less distinct is in how they heal. All of them feel the same in that department and all of them should have clearer healing identities first and foremost in my honest opinion.

AST with this new concept, its current iteration or its SB one is still a buffing class. No other healer has buffs quite like it so it already has it as an identity. Where it struggles is that it is a WHM clone. All its GCDs are WHM's when instead it could focus on more heavily on the regens to make it feel more different. I suppose that's why I find all this unnecessary if that makes sense.

Some thoughts on the details:

• I don't understand the thought behind making our tier one heal be combined with Esuna. Doom makes it become an overheal and there are barely any DoTs worth the cleanse + heal application trait upgrade is better imo.
  
• Astrodyne I assumed was going to be removed. Draw/Play and MA/CP along with all the other Arcanum I assumed would be one button presses. Synastry as I said would work as either a Stargazer or CI replacement so we're on agreement to that. I figured you would have removed skills to make way for these new ones, just was curious on which and where.
  
• Lodestars... again interesting concept but if I wanted a Lily/Toxicon like system I would be playing WHM or SGE. Thought the application is different enough to be intriguing its not the gameplay I personally am looking for on AST.
  
• I get why Shuffle exists, but why instead is it just not built in as a trait is my question, similar to how they changed Lord/Lady to automatically switch instead of you pressing a button to change it before you play? As in, the only way you can regenerate the cards is to use them all and lock them out natively until you do? It feels like an unneeded button press and an extra button on an already dense set of hot bars.

Debate over GCD aside (still thinks it slows APM):

• Questions on Lightspeed. I feel like this would simulate the current, get buffs out now problem since it makes a 1.5 cast time instant on AST.
  
• Why have both Stargazer and CI (or Synastry)? Just curious since both seem to do the same thing with little variance.
  
• CO being a Stop is interesting, I'm not sure if I want to also connect it to the Lodestars on top of Prem. Seems like bloat. Rather I would keep Divination as RR Balance, though we can increase its timer so it isn't 120 meta and perhaps make it stronger and just have the cards be our main buffs so to speak.
  
• ...Conversely we can as you say remove Divination have the cards again be our main buffs and maybe if we want to tie CO into something, especially if the target can't be Stopped which would be like all bosses, perhaps a well timed CO can "Stop" the ticking of the buffs we have on allies within 15y.

[ForsakenRoe]

Instead of Intersection being 'doubles the effectiveness of buff on ally' couldn't we just bring back Time Dilation, since you're also reverting CO to it's HW form by the looks of it? A 4s stun on enemies was functionally equivalent to a 'Stop' effect, and it extended buffs on allies, functionally 'Stop'-ing them too

As for combining tier 1 heals with Esuna, I think the idea is fine, or combining it into Benefic 2 works too. If you have a debuff to cleanse, and you overheal because it's combined with Benefic 1, I wouldn't complain I've overhealed, I'd look at it as like, 'ok whatever' and move on. The purpose of using that GCD was to remove the debuff, the small heal is just a bonus in that situation. If it happens to be a cleansable DOT that hurts like hell (and therefore can't just be powerhealed through/ignored) then the heal component would see a lot more use too. Essentially, that healing button, Benefic 1/Cure 1 etc is 'useless' now, and with this change, at worst, is 'still useless' on the healing aspect. It can only be a gain to merge the two, especially if it gains us hotbar space to have something actually useful.

As for the idea, I don't think the 'speed' of the class would necessarily be affected as much as it might sound. 1.5 is pretty fast, it's RPR burst, MCH Hypercharge, etc. I'm going to assume that when you press Reverse, it'd flip all three drawn cards? In which case, I'm wondering if it'd be more 'interesting' to have only one button to play the card, and you throw them out in the order they are drawn. For example, lets say when you draw, you get Bole, Arrow, Spire. But you want Balance, Arrow and Spear. So you'd have to go: Draw, Reverse (Flips Bole), Play Balance, Reverse (because Arrow was flipped to Ewer which you don't want), Play Arrow, Reverse (because you re-flipped back to Spire), Play Spear. It'd be like the Hypercharge weaving. Also, is Celestial Opposition a 60s CD in this? I would assume so but it's not listed anywhere. Minor Arcana would presumably function like a Royal Road of sorts in this case, an OGCD that changes the effect of the next card you play, just that the cards are now Half-GCDs. Could you make Lord/Lady/Knave into an 'additional effect' on the main cards? IE, you MA a Spear, it doesn't change from 'grant crit rate' to 'Knave effect', it does 'grants crit rate' but also you pulse the 'Knave effect' around yourself when you play it? Burning up eg a Spear, because you really need the Mit from the Knave would be very sad, but if it's a 'Dark Arts' kind of addition thing, then it's selfcontained as a choice between 'what do I need, mit, healing, or one Malefic of damage'.

You could also retuned potencies so that the 'loss' of using a not-Lord is lower, eg it could be 150 or even 100 like Energy Drain. Then there's more choice in the matter I think, because using a Lady here (losing you 100p) could save you from having to use a Helios there (losing you a Malefic cast, 250p), stuff like that. In fact, since Lodestars are listed at 150p, and Lord's at 250, you could just remove 'Grants a lodestar' from Lord specifically, that way it totals out to 100p gained vs a different card, as it stands it's a lot worse than Energy Drain vs 'other spender' dilemma because it's 250 from it's own effect plus 150 from the Lodestar, plus it's a 1.5s GCD instead of Malefic's 2.5, so you'd only ever want to use Lords, to the point where it's actually better to purposely Helios heal, if it means using Lord over the other two