Paired Threads: What would it take to make Heaker kits "complex/interesting"?

[ForsakenRoe]

Having a 123 instead of a 111 is not the solution IMO. Imagine that, instead of having Jolt/Verstone/Verfire as seperate buttons on RDM, with procs, you just did them in that order as a 123. Or that BLM's Fire4 spam was a 123 combo of F1, F3, F4, stuff like that. The reason those jobs work well, is because their main loop isn't some variation of 123. I'd rather see the extra stuff added to healers be 'conditional' in the same way as casters, be that as procs, separate GCD (think Goring Blade or Sonic Break), or limited because it applies a DOT and you don't want to overwrite early

[Xelanar]

Having a 123 instead of a 111 is not the solution IMO. Imagine that, instead of having Jolt/Verstone/Verfire as seperate buttons on RDM, with procs, you just did them in that order as a 123. Or that BLM's Fire4 spam was a 123 combo of F1, F3, F4, stuff like that. The reason those jobs work well, is because their main loop isn't some variation of 123. I'd rather see the extra stuff added to healers be 'conditional' in the same way as casters, be that as procs, separate GCD (think Goring Blade or Sonic Break), or limited because it applies a DOT and you don't want to overwrite early

The issue with this approach is, that it theoretically can apply to everything. At which point does it become ok to switch from 1 button to multiple buttons? 3? 4? 6? Dragoon is basically 123456789-10. What if we made that 11111-11111 instead? Is it still the same? Is it more boring? I guess that is debatable, but for me personally? I'd rather press multiple buttons in sequence than the same one again and again.

However, even if we were to place this portion of the argument aside (which we probably should, since it is just a matter of taste), there is an entire different issue that sets a healer's 111 apart from a possible 111(Jolt/Verstone/Verfire) from Red Mage.

The issue being, healers are not only pressing the same button over and over again - they are using the same skill over and over again as well. A skill that by itself feels boring and dull to use in every way: animation, impact, effect, complexity, sound, potency etc. And it is the only thing we get for healing downtime - which by design is what we have plentyful. And not only party content suffers from it. The single player experience? "A test of your reflexes" consisted of me spamming Malefic for 10 Minutes, slowly chipping down a huge pool of HP - multiple times.

That being said, I'd be on board with healers having at least a basic conditional procc mechanic of sorts. Anything that breaks the 111-rotation is viable in my eyes. But something definitely needs to change when it comes to healer DPS "rotations". I'd already be perfectly fine with Warrior types of complexity: A 123 buildup, and a spending skill.

I honestly don't even understand why exclusively healers are being treated in this way. Tanks have more complex rotations than healers do, while also being expected to do their job at the same time - and ironically OUR job as well, with how much healing the have available. I mean, why am I even there then?

[UkcsAlias]

While 12345 and 11111 can be effectively the same in result. There are diffirences to note:
- A healer should not be punished for interupting the dps rotation
- A dps often has trees that branch and allow other effects to trigger
- Healing must be more reliable per ability, than dps must be (for dps, the average acros a rotation is what counts - but healers must be able to interupt these)

As a result, healer dps must be simplistic. But there are a few catches that do enable freedom (and also apply extra restrictions):

DPS rotations must be standalone. Healing cannot interupt these (not even based on a timer!). While interactions are forbidden, some interactions still provide a null net result (for example, after a heal, the next gcd cast deals double damage), these can still provide the negative effect in which healers try to optimize these bonusses, but normal dps casts already feature this same risk/reward feature.

DPS rotations must not be based on a 'better to cast one now, and heal a rotation later' effect. Any boost that was applied, must be applied on a longer basis (this can be a real mess). If there is a teamwide dps boost, yet you are healing, your dps casts will be even less valuable. Which especialy with combo systems could mean you lost your highest potency cast. This would force people into doing more dps casts, rather than just doing what they should have done. Where in the previous example skipping a dps cast only lost you 1 gcd of dps, in this case it could be 0.8 or 1.3 effective dps casts lost, just because of combos.

And now imagine only having 2 abilities of 200 and 150(base)+150(combo) potency. Its already quite a mess at this point. Since you generaly want to use that 300 potency during buffs. It can make players skip a heal (and cause a death, or other players to drop their dps for survival). For a healer that just doesnt work.

Now imagine each heal adds 1 dps cast worth of potency to the next dps cast. So heal>heal>dps means 3x the damage on that single dps cast. while dps>dps>dps would just be the same. Now healing becomes favored as its more efficient. But the moment you go for 90% of potency added to the next cast, this heal>heal>dps cycle becomes useless since you want that extra 10%. It doesnt matter how you assign the buttons here, you dont want to lose dps for free (but often useless) heals. This is why freecast is useless (the many cure1 casts negate the dps you could have delivered).

It might be strange, but 11111 is actualy quite good. And the only system that would work is just a standalone constant rotation which regardless of what you do makes 1 and 2 just be the exact same, but with a forced alternating between the 2 (or you lose potency). Healing does not interact here, and as both values are the same, its never going to be a potency loss (unless mispressing - as its desired when making such rotation).

Also, tanks have more complex rotations since their aggro management is still just dealing dps. Something that healers cant do with healing.

[Xelanar]

While 12345 and 11111 can be effectively the same in result. There are diffirences to note:
- A healer should not be punished for interupting the dps rotation
- A dps often has trees that branch and allow other effects to trigger
- Healing must be more reliable per ability, than dps must be (for dps, the average acros a rotation is what counts - but healers must be able to interupt these)

As a result, healer dps must be simplistic. But there are a few catches that do enable freedom (and also apply extra restrictions):

DPS rotations must be standalone. Healing cannot interupt these (not even based on a timer!). While interactions are forbidden, some interactions still provide a null net result (for example, after a heal, the next gcd cast deals double damage), these can still provide the negative effect in which healers try to optimize these bonusses, but normal dps casts already feature this same risk/reward feature.

DPS rotations must not be based on a 'better to cast one now, and heal a rotation later' effect. Any boost that was applied, must be applied on a longer basis (this can be a real mess). If there is a teamwide dps boost, yet you are healing, your dps casts will be even less valuable. Which especialy with combo systems could mean you lost your highest potency cast. This would force people into doing more dps casts, rather than just doing what they should have done. Where in the previous example skipping a dps cast only lost you 1 gcd of dps, in this case it could be 0.8 or 1.3 effective dps casts lost, just because of combos.

And now imagine only having 2 abilities of 200 and 150(base)+150(combo) potency. Its already quite a mess at this point. Since you generaly want to use that 300 potency during buffs. It can make players skip a heal (and cause a death, or other players to drop their dps for survival). For a healer that just doesnt work.

Now imagine each heal adds 1 dps cast worth of potency to the next dps cast. So heal>heal>dps means 3x the damage on that single dps cast. while dps>dps>dps would just be the same. Now healing becomes favored as its more efficient. But the moment you go for 90% of potency added to the next cast, this heal>heal>dps cycle becomes useless since you want that extra 10%. It doesnt matter how you assign the buttons here, you dont want to lose dps for free (but often useless) heals. This is why freecast is useless (the many cure1 casts negate the dps you could have delivered).

It might be strange, but 11111 is actualy quite good. And the only system that would work is just a standalone constant rotation which regardless of what you do makes 1 and 2 just be the exact same, but with a forced alternating between the 2 (or you lose potency). Healing does not interact here, and as both values are the same, its never going to be a potency loss (unless mispressing - as its desired when making such rotation).

Also, tanks have more complex rotations since their aggro management is still just dealing dps. Something that healers cant do with healing.

Well... you are correct, IF those were the rules.

However, do you not believe developers to be capable of addressing obvious flaws like "heals are not allowed to break a combo"? What if heals did in fact NOT break a combo? Because developers are very capable of making that possible if they wanted to.

The issue here is, that assumptions are made, and conclusions are drawn from those. And while those conclusions are in fact correct, they are based on something that does not have to be the way it is assumed. Personally? I think developers are able to increase healer DPS complexity with a system that makes sense. The main issue is, for some reason they do not want to.

Their philosophy is, healers should not be distracted by DPS-related things, because they should focus on healing. Which is fine. However those same developers also force us to focus on DPS, because there is not enough to heal. One of those needs to take the lead, yet here we are, right in between, being asked to press one button most of the time, while nothing happens.

[Nizzi]

It might be strange, but 11111 is actualy quite good.

No, lol

Also, tanks have more complex rotations since their aggro management is still just dealing dps. Something that healers cant do with healing.

*turns on stance*
*hits button*
*holds aggro for the rest of the fight*

Love this community defending the pigslop healers get and then saying that tanks get to have fun because they have to press one button to turn their stance...? There is literally no reason tanks couldn't have the exact same DPS rotation that healers have. You manage aggro with your co tank by turning off your stance, using Provoke and Shirk. Wow, that's definitely a justification for why they get to have "complex rotations" while we get the 'actually quite good' 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

[Allegor]

No, lol


*turns on stance*
*hits button*
*holds aggro for the rest of the fight*

Love this community defending the pigslop healers get and then saying that tanks get to have fun because they have to press one button to turn their stance...? There is literally no reason tanks couldn't have the exact same DPS rotation that healers have. You manage aggro with your co tank by turning off your stance, using Provoke and Shirk. Wow, that's definitely a justification for why they get to have "complex rotations" while we get the 'actually quite good' 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

It's also outdated, since aggro management is near nonexistent now, the only way to lose aggro as a tank is to straight up be afk. So no, they don't actually need a whole 123 rotation, let alone those fancy capstone abilities that tend to have nothing to do with mitigating damage/self sustain (you know, a tank's job!) - they can literally get rid of tanks 123 st/aoe rotation to releave some button bloat, but what would be the fun in only pressing 111111111 all fight?

[ty_taurus]

It's also outdated, since aggro management is near nonexistent now, the only way to lose aggro as a tank is to straight up be afk. So no, they don't actually need a whole 123 rotation, let alone those fancy capstone abilities that tend to have nothing to do with mitigating damage/self sustain (you know, a tank's job!) - they can literally get rid of tanks 123 st/aoe rotation to releave some button bloat, but what would be the fun in only pressing 111111111 all fight?

But what if the tank gets distracted by DPSing and forgets to mitigate!?

[IDontPetLalas]

It does sound strange to hear someone say that '11111' is "quite good" .

I don't believe that most people are asking, or have ever asked for a "complex rotation". Given healers can hit 1,2, 3 or some other variation in other games - do you honestly think that healers don't have the judgement to realize when it would be safe to DPS and when it would safe to heal given that damage is predictable in this game or that most of the party would end of lying on the floor?

[Rilifane]

You'll forgive me for not believing the claim that healer downtime gameplay, specifically dps options, must be simple, that 1111 is actually good or that "interactions are forbidden" or would provide a negative effect by healers trying to optimize after playing a WoW healer in something as simple as LFR, having plenty of constant and spiky damage all over the place while having more elaborate downtime gameplay for something that I was able to maybe 30% of my time tops.
The servers or healer brains won't suddenly explode if we have options, something to strive for as we get more and more practice while someone that still lacks this practice simply focusses on fulfilling their primary role. As I did in LFR after hopping into it for the first time in years.
Interaction between heal and dps spells would work, interaction between dps spells would work, rewarding optimized gameplay would work, having more options in general would work. How I know? Because FFXIV is so far the only game that actively refuses to give any of these - pretty much every other MMO I ever played, both old and more modern ones, weren't so stubborn about refusing to give options and it worked perfectly fine.
But somehow in the world of FFXIV that isn't possible, servers would explode, nobody would play healer, baby healer brains would explode and so on.

And I'm firmly against 123 combos for healers simply because they're indrecibly inefficient in terms of button economy while barely adding anything.
Avoiding button bloat is a constant issue and a 123 combo takes up 3 buttons for something that gives very little room for error since it's so binary, easily committed to muscle memory and doesn't involve any decision making. When we want to add engagement to downtime gameplay it's important to consider the cost (how many slots would it take up) vs reward (how much engagement and skill ceiling it provides).
And basic combos cost a lot for little reward.
Branching combos are another matter, however they are best for more than 3 buttons. 4 or even 5 is more realistic here to make it worthwhile.
Procs or cooldown/ dot duration decreases are also more efficient as they "scale" with your gameplay level and are great for adding synergy and interaction.
Something like a Mudra system or modifiers like Eukrasia or procs are good options as well and can be designed in a way that they "scale" with gameplay level as well.
Basic combos are barely a step above the skill ceiling being firmly pancaked against the skill floor as it is with 1111. You just hit the ceiling way too easily and then there's nothing more to it. If they decided to give every healer a 123 combo with 7.0, I'd laugh my ass off over how tone-deaf and off the mark it is. Healers are still the only role that gets the bubblewrap treatmen to this extend.

[Iedarus]

You'll forgive me for not believing the claim that healer downtime gameplay, specifically dps options, must be simple, that 1111 is actually good or that "interactions are forbidden" or would provide a negative effect by healers trying to optimize after playing a WoW healer in something as simple as LFR, having plenty of constant and spiky damage all over the place while having more elaborate downtime gameplay for something that I was able to maybe 30% of my time tops.

Funny enough I tried WoW again fairly recently and decided to be a disc priest. Despite their heal on damage mechanic, I wound up letting my team die so many times because I didn't realize incoming damage was so frequent. Imagine that, I have to actually heal as a healer? Who would have thunk?