A question: What makes a Healer "easy/simple" or "hard/complex"?

[Renathras]

It's interesting how frequently that you respond with rebuttal such as "Solo content isn't tedious to a lot of people. There's zero reason all Healers NEED those. I think the problem here is that you think that all Healer players want what you do and feel the way you do. Many players find WHM, for example, fun and engaging"

You are backing up your opinion, and based upon likely empirical evidence and claiming it as fact- when you aren't providing any factual evidence (independently sourced metrics) to back it up.

Yet another attempt to derail a thread. Where to even begin? I'll stick this in an HB so it doesn't derail the thread itself.

1) There is not "zero reason" for any Healer to stay as it is now. There are several, which I've articulated before and some here. In brief:

- Some people like Healers as they are right now and wouldn't like the changes. This is AT THE VERY LEAST a reason to keep AT LEAST ONE Healer as it exists presently.
- Some of the Healer kits right now actually work very well, both in the game system/mechanics terms and in the kit's identity. WHM and SGE, as I've discussed previously, both do. There's a risk to "fixing what isn't broken".
- The Devs don't exactly have a track record of "fixing" Jobs that ends up with more people happy with them than there were before their changes. PLD, Kaiten, and SMN are the shortlist (though I contend they probably got it right with SMN, but still alienated a lot of people by removing Green Mage)
- Changing some but not all Healer kits reduces the risk of Healer role collapse if the changes aren't well received. Say for the sake of argument we add more DPS kits to all the Healers, but it turns out it was only a small minority that wanted them and, in fact, the majority of Healers in the game very much did not, to the point they quit the role or quit the game. Perhaps there are additional new Healers from the other roles, but not enough to make up the difference and we have the worst Healer shortage in the game's history, far worse than SB or 6.2. That problem wouldn't materialize if one or two of the Healer Jobs were not changed, since many of those players would migrate to those Jobs instead of leaving the role/game, either minimizing or preventing the collapse and allowing the changed Jobs to attract new members to the role without causing the high level of losses that changing all of the Healer Jobs would result in.

There are more, but there are three reasons. And as we know from math, 3 does not equal 0. So there are not zero reasons, there are several, for not changing all the Healer kits.

2) Note that I use "a lot" or "some" while other people use absolute terms, such as "to make solo content less tedious" (implicitly assuming that solo content is tedious to everyone when it is not); interesting that you have no issue with false absolute statements - which are opinions presenting themselves as facts - while my own positions are more limited and measured - because I recognize that they are not universal. "a lot" is not a majority. 1000 is a lot. In a game of 4-5 million players and 500,000-1 million healers, 10 thousand would still be a lot. Do you really believe there are NOT a lot of players who are fine with Healers as they are? Really? Likewise "many". Note I'm not the one claiming total or majority support of my positions. I'm also the one that holds that even if you guys WERE a minority, I'd still want you to have something you enjoy; a consideration none of you, over months of threads, have extended to those who don't think like you do, I might add...

3) I'm basing my opinion on the fact that we have a diverse playerbase and it is HIGHLY probable that a not insignificant percentage of them think like I do. I base this on the fact that I think like a more traditional MMO healer and that many players do not frequent the forums and seem not to have the complaints that you do. Again, I make no statements on the SIZE of this population other than it is non-zero and consists of a not-insignificant amount of people. I've estimated before it could be anywhere from 15-70%, where even at the lowest end, it would still comprise around 1/6th to 1/5th of all Healers - an entirely reasonable position given MMO populations, the relatively few Healers that come to the forums to voice complaints, etc. An entirely reasonable position that, again, none of you seem willing to admit to (since it would likely justify an argument to leave at least one Healer alone...)

4) I claimed nothing "as fact", though what I said very likely IS true - "a lot of people" likely do not find Healer solo content tedious, and "Many players" likely do find WHM fun and engaging. A not insignificant, non-zero number of Healer players do not think as you do (note that one isn't a likely; that one IS true, though it's impossible to say what that non-zero number is)

5) None of you have provided factual evidence or independently sourced metrics to back up your position that even a majority of Healers want the changes you propose, nor a commanding enough majority to have them all changed, nor that there are no minorities of any size that would disagree and be deserving of at least one left for them, nor that there are NO such people (a statement you'd know is a lie because I'm one such person, proving it's a non-zero number). Contrasting that, I have, in various threads, provided census numbers, clear rates, and ability analysis across the game's history - which is far more than any of you have done. The closest is an anecdotal statement (with no actual statistical support or data presented) that Healer numbers have collapsed post P5-8 release. Yet you attack me for my position which is far more sourced and supported than your own, which hasn't been by you or any of the posters agreeing with your position...

6)

Given that- it remains an argument of one person's preference versus another person's preference.

You mean the very thing I have stated numerous times up to this point?? That we all have different preferences and that the Healer/playerbase likely has a spread of preferences such that the Healers should NOT be made all the same (simple OR complex) as that would be denying many people a Healer Job that appeals to their preferences? THANK YOU for agreeing with me. Though it's rather untoward of you to do so only by acting like I didn't already hold that very selfsame position before you here. Indeed, I hold it now and you do not - your post indicates that you still think my position is not held by others, or at least, not by enough to matter.

7)

You are "being a contrarian" , you have held to some positions- one for example being "It's explicitly WHY I think we should change SOME Healers but not ALL of them, so that both types of player have at least one they enjoy playing on. There's only one Healer in the game that has 1 DoT + 1 Nuke, and that's AST."

I hope you realize "stating a fact" is not "being a contrarian". Unless you thought I meant the other Healers don't have 1 DoT + 1 Nuke? My statement was that only one Healer has that AND NOTHING ELSE. Though it's not MUCH else, WHM has Misery, SCH has Ruin 2 (ED isn't a GCD), and SCH has Plegma/Toxicon/Pneuma. Stating a fact isn't stating an opinion. And even if it were; stating an opinion isn't being a contrarian. Being a contrarian is choosing to hold or present a position opposite everyone else's for no other reason than that you want to hold/present an opposed position. In my case, I present my position as I said above - because I genuinely believe it.

8)

you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, however that isn't one that everyone holds.

Irony, thy name is...

You realize that I'm the only one here who HASN'T stated my position is universal and that everyone holds it, or some statement close enough to that to make no difference? I'm the one here who couches my statements with "many", "some", "a lot", "a not-insignificant amount", and so on; implicitly if not explicitly NOT saying my position is majority, much less universal. While you guys describe your opinions as universal truths, what I do is call your attention to the fact they are not universal.

When I many people don't think or feel as you do, that's not me saying NO ONE does or that EVERYONE agrees with me.

It's me saying a not-insignificant, non-zero amount of people disagree with you. It could be a minority, it could be a plurality, it could be a majority. I don't know, so I don't say. But it's not zero, and it's not insignificant. You're the one supporting posters arguing that your position is absolute, or near enough to not matter.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion (something I've said many times), however that isn't one that everyone holds. And no, I'm not turning your words against you - these are literally the same words I've said many times before now, and in threads you've been an active part in. You can't not know that I hold this position. Especially as you often act as if you do not...

This occurred because of a combination of reasons.

I agree, but the point still remains: The Devs tried to say something about what they wanted Healer design to be and the community refused to accept it. Set aside Energy Drain (for the MP issue) and note that the community also largely (or, if a minority, a vocal one that is still of significant size) has rejected the push towards Healers dealing less damage or having less involved damage kits. You can list any number of reasons for this, but the end result is the same - the Devs took actions in one direction and the community refused to accept it.

I also am confused: What "butchering of WHM"?

WHM was only "butchered" in SB, it was made whole in ShB, not "butchered". And arguably HW. Removing Aero 3 to add Misery and the fantastic ShB Lily system that made WHM not suck anymore like it did in SB - there's no rational person I've ever seen argue that SB WHM was actually good when pressed - was not a "butchering". WHM in ShB was better than WHM in SB, full stop. AT WORST it was a side grade, but it wasn't a side grade, it was an improvement. WHM in EW is, as this very thread has pointed out, more developed, engaging, and WORKS than ShB or SB. And yes, that's all that was changed for WHM from SB to ShB. Aero 3 was removed (Aero 1 had been removed in 4.0), Presence of Mind 2 (the redundant non-toggle Cleric Stance) was removed (Cleric Stance 1.0 was removed in 4.0), the terribad 4.0 Lily system was removed, the generally considered pointless Fluid Aura was removed and replaced with the actually good Divine Benison (Fluid Aura was made worthless in 4.0, not 5.0), and the actually good Lilies (which at the time weren't damage neutral but were arguably close to it) were added and WHM was actually considered a worthwhile healer in ShB where it was considered bad in SB. WHM also got a 1.5 sec Glare in 6.0 to use for weaving (something it, unlike SCH who had Ruin 2, arguably actually needs; recasting Dia over and over during the Bozja Wraith miniboss fight because I had NOTHING ELSE on WHM to use while moving and Glare's cast was too long to slidecast at all with felt terrible) which was also an improvement.

I think the ONE thing I might consider reverting from EW would be Thin Air, though this targeted one is kind of growing on me, I did like the 15 seconds of free casting...

I'm trying to think of anything else of value changed from SB to ShB, and I can't think of anything. The only thing lost of any worth was Aero 3. The other stuff was either already made worthless/pointless in 4.0 or already removed outright in 4.0.

Anyway, getting to it:

Why would I ever hit Cure 2 before Afflatus Solace or Tetra? Medica over Rapture or Assize when it lines up? There simply isn't any reason to do so because the former all have cast times and MP costs associated with them on top of being a DPS loss to utilize whereas the latter don't. I would like there to be a reason other than "shit has hit the fan". If Healers could also differentiate themselves from one another that would be a great bonus on top.

I literally just proposed a solution for this:

1) Make Cure 1 upgrade to Cure 2 (direct upgrade, so Cure 2's MP cost would be 400 and cast time 1.5 sec base; AST nearly has this already and WHM is the one that's supposed to be the strong throughput Healer)

2) Make all WHM GCDs generate 1/3rd Blood Lily on use (that is, they're now all damage neutral). This makes all GCD heals for WHM be a choice - "Do I want to stand still and expend MP on this, or do I want to expend a limited resource that I might rather save for movement later?", as the damage being neutral between Cure 2 and Solace or Medica and Rapture makes it an actual choice rather than one being objectively better. You only have one Lily and expect a movement heavy mechanic coming within the next 10-15 seconds before you have another Lily up? In such cases, Medica/Cure 2 or even Medica 2 for the HoT might be better to cast now so you have that Lily for the upcoming movement phase. It provides an actual choice because there are actual use case differences and trade-offs, even if they heal for the same potency. Right now, that choice doesn't exist because Medica/Cure 2 incur an MP, movement, and damage penalty, and the last one of those is too damning to make them usable. (Also the 400 MP Cure 2 cost - hell, even 500 - would make it MP neutral vs a Glare cast)

3) PROBABLY have Medica 1 upgrade to Medica 2. It's a flat upgrade, it just needs its tooltip adjusted. Medica 1 can read "250 potency heal, Regen 150 potency for 3 sec" (one tick, maybe two ticks). Medica 2 has its MP cost reduced by 100 and is now a straight upgrade, problem solved.

Now the basic healing kit is:

Cure 2 / Solace / Tetra for single target healing. Solace has higher priority if you have Lilies to spare and/or no movement coming up, Cure 2 if you have 1 or less Lilies and/or expect movement to be coming up, Tetra if you need an immediate spot heal regardless of whatever else you're doing (if you're mid-cast on a Glare, Solace will be too slow). They now have distinct use cases and Cure 2 and Solace have trade-offs to make using one or the other both justifiable choices (actual choice!) based on the situation, with Tetra being more of a backup item in case of emergencies.

Medica 2 / Rapture for AOE healing, with the same Cure 2/Solace argument of MP and cast time vs movement and a limited resource. Assize is still used on CD as long as it has the damage component (which no one is arguing to remove), so is only part of the equation if it's about to come off CD or has JUST come off CD and you don't mind a few seconds drift on it. There's an argument to make Assize have 2 charges, but that would upend this, so better not. Again, this is actual choice rather than one option always being better by default.

My goal in any changes is to increase player choice and remove "this one is always better" situations. At least, for stuff like this. Doing things like having Cure 2/Medica replaced with Solace/Rapture if a Lily is up removes choice.

4) Making Plenary a minor (5% or 10% on a shorter duration) party mitigation would patch the hole WHM presently has. Temparance down to 60 seconds helps, but WHM would still be one short vs the other Healers and most encounters. If you're actually trying in 4 mans (where you have no other Healer), you start to notice really quickly that the other three have 3 mitigations per 2 mins but WHM does not. For example, Ra La's raidwides or the final boss from Alzadaal's Legacy have either a party-wide every 30 second or a bit more often than 60 sec (I for get which), and where even AST has a CD for that, WHM does not and its noticeable. While in more serious content you SHOULD always have a second Healer, even AST has tools for that. So unless we're removing mitigations from the other Healers (something I oppose), WHM needs to gain ~2 per 120 sec over what it has now.

.

I personally oppose the "if you have a Lily up" idea - yours isn't the first time I've seen it - because there ARE cases where I want to hold a Lily for something, and removing that choice is not an improvement. It's akin to arguing that Tanks/Melee/MCH should have their 1-2-3 condensed into a single button. Note that if all the GCDs were instant cast base, that WOULDN'T be an issue, but the only one that is is Regen. Also note this isn't an issue with Cure 1 (which I see no reason not to remove) because it doesn't really have a distinct use case. The use case for Cure 1 is EXTREMELY narrow - you have less than 1000 MP but greater than 400 MP and/or you need a heal in less than 2 seconds but greater than 1.5 sec. This is not true of Medica/Cure 2, which have distinct use cases. It'd be like telling a BLM that Xenoglossy and Fire 4 were basically the same thing and to turn the Fire 4 button into Xenoglossy whenever a Polyglot stack is up. While both have the effect of "does damage", and you DO want to use Polyglot stacks before overcapping, the use cases are still distinct. And if Medica/Cure 2/etc all generated 1/3rd Blood Lily, there would actually be a viable trade-off there that presently does not exist - there are cases where you wish to conserve limited resources and where MP would not be your most limiting resource.

I'm a bit confused about your Aero 3. By "similarly to BLM's Thunder Spells", do you mean the way Thunder 2/4 are AOE only and Thunder 1/3 are single target only? I'm not sure that's worth justifying another Hotbar slot, honestly. I'm also a bit confused on your Thundercloud proc. Wouldn't that end up with people complaining they have to overheal with Regen/Medica 2? And by "proc" you mean "not guaranteed", right? Meaning if it doesn't proc, using them would be a DPS loss? Where if we just make them contribute to the Blood Lily, they're guaranteed damage neutral...

Also: Not everyone likes having "short timers to maintain". Especially if we change the other Healers to where they all DO have them...

Making Water/Flood a Ruin 2 equivalent wouldn't differentiate it, it would make it look more like SCH while contributing to button bloat with no gain; even if we just look at your model (not mine), Regen would be the preferred instant cast GCD weave, not Water/Ruin 2. Making Water a low level AOE that upgrades into Holy would actually make it more distinct...

.

But, allow me to veer to a different question:

What would you do with SCH and AST?

EVERYONE seems to want to change WHM - the one Healer that needs changing the least - but we don't all even agree on that.

But EVERYONE agrees that SCH and AST need to be changed...so instead of proposals for WHM, what would you propose for the Healers we all agree should be changed?

Or do we all agree so much you just agree with my own stated positions on both, such as bringing back all of SCH's SB abilities and making AST Cards on the GCD?