Paired Threads: What would it take to make Heaker kits "simple/straightforward"?

[Renathras]

WHM,

SCH,

AST,

SGE;

What would it take to make them easy/simple/straightforward/relaxing? (And no, the answer isn't "they already are; AST has some weird time-based spells and optimal SCH play isn't straightforward, etc etc)

[EDIT: Sister thread of https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ex-interesting ]

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EDIT 2: Can't make a separate post, so putting it in an edit:

My take:

WHM mostly has this under control. The changes I would make would be giving it a second party mitigation on a 60 sec CD on some already existing ability it has with a 60 sec CD like Plenary Indulgence, or possibly make Asylum 60 sec CD and put it on that (which would be fitting given the name...Asylum; place of protection or refuge offering safety). I would also have Cure 1 straight upgrade into Cure 2, which would now have a 400 MP cost and 1.5 sec base cast time like Cure 1 does. Make Medica 1 straight upgrade into Medica 2 (the initial heal of Medica 2 plus the first HoT tick that comes right after are the same healing as Medica 1 already anyway) with the same 900 MP cost so it's a straight upgrade. Make all GCD heals nourish the Blood Lily so that they're damage neutral and not a bad choice to heal with. That's honestly it; WHM is in a pretty good place. Maybe remove the DoT, but meh.

SCH needs...a lot of work. SCH would have to have many of its oGCDs turned into GCDs so they're more straightforward to use and don't reward power weaving as the game doesn't explain weaving to new players so many people don't understand the concept. Only Faerie Abilities remain as oGCDs. Replace the over time things with direct heals, like Whispering Dawn with Fey Blessing and make all healing buffs like Fey Illumination affect Actions and Spells both, and all damage mitigation be against all damage types, not magic or physical specifically. Remove Energy Drain so that damage isn't competing with healing (SGE does this right, SCH does this wrong). Remove the CD on Emergency Tactics so it can be used at any time. Make Physic upgrade to Adloquium, Adlo now does 450 potency of healing, and Emergency Tactics would make this a 1,260 potency heal, 2,070 on a crit. Deployment Tactics is also available for frequent use, maybe a 20-30 sec CD. Lustrate upgrades into Excogitation, which has no CD now. Remove Faerie Gauge. Aetherpact is just a toggle that can be activated and deactivated at any time. Ruin 1 is instant cast, upgrades to Ruin 2, which upgrades into the Broil spell line, which are all also instant cast. This allows free weaving of Faerie abilities without any issues. Aetherflow now generate automatically. Chain Strategem is applied any time Biolysis is used to any/all Biolysis targets, or alternatively, all party members in Sacred Soil have the Chain Strategem increased critical baked into their attacks while they remain in it instead of it being a boss debuff. Either works. Remove Dissipation.

AST I already wrote most of it in that other thread, but the summary would be to remove all time delay effects, make all its Cards do the same thing, make its oGCD heals mirror its GCD heals like how WHM has Tetra (Cure 2/Solace) and Assize (Medica/Rapture) do. Make Draw and Play GCDs that do an AOE hit with the same potency as Malific so they're damage neutral. They're also AOE in their effects on party members and you can stack all their buffs, so if you use Balance (+6% damage for the party) and then Ewer (also +6% damage for the party) right after, the party has both effects up and Ewer will last two GCDs longer (since it was applied, via Draw and Play being GCDs, two GCDs later). The same GCD heals as now with Earthly Star added as Cure 3 (is a GCD big AOE heal now, and has no damage or time based components), and the same three GCD damage spells of Combust, Malific, and Gravity. Collective Unconscious, Celestial Opposition, Celestial Intersection, Neutral Sect, Exaltation, and Macrocosmos will also stay as they are now. Cards are a single effect and all the same, AOE for the whole party like PvP AST, does damage and buffing(?)/healing, and is damage neutral. Draw/Play are GCDs, but instant and damage neutral and with no need for a target since it's a big AOE. Essential Dignity is now Tetra, Horoscope is now Plenary Indulgence (and works on single target spells, bonus!), Synastry is Benediction. And I guess Lightspeed is KINDA Presence of Mind (make it MP free and we can mark off Thin Air while we're at it). Divination, Astrodyne, Undraw, Redraw, Minor Arcana, Lord of Crowns, Lady of Crowns are all removed.

SGE...is honestly not in a bad place. Make Toxicon do 2x Dosis' worth of damage so it's damage neutral to use your barrier GCDs now. Maybe also make the cast time GCDs (regular Diagnosis and Prognosis) also generate an Adderssting stack when cast. Make Kardia heal like it does today, but SGE also radiates 50% of that as AOE party healing in addition to cover some routine party healing needs. Make Plegma a 20 or 25y range spell instead of 6y "near-melee" as it is today. Remove Krasis and just make SGE's single target healing effects do that much more healing (including Kardia). Make Rhizomata generate an Addersting as well as Addersgall. Remove Haima and drop Panhamia's CD to 60 seconds where the shields are just Hamia strength (and have the cool box shield animation) to begin with. (Ironically, some of these changes MIGHT make SGE's rotation a bit more spicy since you'd be using Toxicon a bit more, but it would make it overall simpler to play).

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That's how I would make Healers more or less super simple.

[IDontPetLalas]

They already are simple and straightforward. No, I'm not trolling - that's very subjective . If you asked me however about some specific melee jobs you'd get a different response - or even the old summoner rotation.

Regarding your approach to AST - I do not for example find that AST has any "weird time based spells" , I don't want AST turned into a pseudo WMH, which some of your changes resemble. I am more than happy switching to my WHM if I want to do that.

[Renathras]

Okay, let me clarify:

The point of these TWO threads - there are TWO of them, and I even put the link for each one in the OP so they'd be easy to compare - is to look at what it would take to make Healers truly simple (no, they are not all right now) vs making them truly complex, to get a really general feel of what the two boundaries would look like. That is, to bound the problem/situation so that analyzing the in-between could be done more effectively and to kind of see what the highest and least would look like against each other.

It wasn't to change or even suggest changes, it was a thought experiment to establish endpoints on a spectrum to provide for further discussion.

The truly simple case is basically "How could we make low skill floor and the skill floor equal the skill ceiling while still having an actual Job there" (e.g. one button that both maxheals the party and does max DPS wouldn't be an actual Job in a videogame sense anymore, so it's something higher than that, with each Healer having something based on how they currently work, like SGE Kardia or SCH Faerie). So it's not an absolute "dipping bird" floor.

Conversely, the truly complex side is pretty high ended, but not infinite as there are still limits to things people are willing to consider, even people that WANT a really complex overhaul of Healers.

I get you aren't into thought experiments. That's fine - you don't have to post in the threads. But I'll thank you to step aside and let people who are interested do so without being such a sayer of nay.

EDIT:

Anyway, since you HATE how simple Healers are, go over to the other thread and say how you'd make them complex. Read my own complex Healer pitches in the OP there and comment on those. I and anyone else who's a regular here already knows you hate Healers as they are and simple things, so you're going to say what you said here. That doesn't do any good for anyone or help move any conversation because we all know you already think Healers are simple and wouldn't like a simple AST (or anything else).

Instead, you could make a post here saying how you'd simplify (but not dipping bird) Healers and/or go over there and make a post about how you'd complicate them or discuss the topic you're more interested in anyway, complicated Healers.

Seriously, read my WHM over there. I'm rather proud of it. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ex-interesting

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Also - it's funny to me how much you and Sem are alike...

[fulminating]

I guess what would truly make healer kits as simple as can be is moving all healing responsibilities over to the tank, or slightly less facetiously adding a short cooldown high potency oGCD heal that hits everyone from here to narnia.

[ForsakenRoe]

I guess what would truly make healer kits as simple as can be is moving all healing responsibilities over to the tank, or slightly less facetiously adding a short cooldown high potency oGCD heal that hits everyone from here to narnia.

CO, CU, Earthly Star, Horoscope are all 60s CDs, we're already pretty close to 'short CD, high potency OGCD that hits everyone' as it is. SGE can clear P8S without using a single GCD heal (Pneuma not included cos damage neutral), and that's in a tier where the devs purposely ramped up the HPS and mit requirements. The only way to make it any simpler is to move all the healing GCDs like Medica etc, OFF the GCD, so they just don't conflict with damage at all. Which some people might want, but that sounds like a 'this kills the role' change because it'd be so braindead, even by comparison to current braindead levels

[Renathras]

I guess what would truly make healer kits as simple as can be is moving all healing responsibilities over to the tank, or slightly less facetiously adding a short cooldown high potency oGCD heal that hits everyone from here to narnia.

Okay, let me try to frame the question differently:

If you were going to build actual Healer Jobs, but as simple as possible covering just the basics (healing, mitigation, and basic downtime damage), to be as simple as possible (in this thread; as complex as possible and still be usable is the other thread), how would you do it?

Or, to put it another way: How would you make SCH, AST, and SGE as simple as you believe WHM is now? Might think of it that way...

[Videra]

What makes a man take something stupidly simple and make it simpler? Lust for money? Power? Or were they just born with a heart full of an inability to conceive of a skill ceiling that isn't six feet underground?