A question: What makes a Healer "easy/simple" or "hard/complex"?

[Renathras]

Heavenward Scholar had a kit that fit the damage and healing profile of encounters perfectly. You spent most of your time dpsing and it was fun. You had plenty of skills to manage to do damage. When it was time to heal you had a few skills but they required thought to be put to full advantage. Your strong heals had cool downs that needed to be respected. You couldn't blow everything on Energy Drains because the same resource was the cornerstone of your healing and you couldn't rely on Succor spam to fill health bars.

I agree with this.

But not this:

Every healer should have been made into Scholar with a robust DPS kit to fill the healing downtime in causal content and a healing toolkit that required some actual brainpower to function well.

The problems this game has worst, imo, is when they make everything the same. This goes for making all Jobs simple but ALSO for making all Jobs complex. There should be a spectrum. In HW, when SCH was that way, WHM was not and AST was...well...AST.

Moreover, I think the reason for the "no way to fail" is because so many Healers quit the role in HW and SB that the Devs were trying to make it so people didn't have "Healxiety" and would actually que up as Healers more, since there were massive Healer shortages.

As you say, though I don't agree with it personally, the Devs also thought "Healing NEEDS to be easy." But that thought extends to Healer damage kits. They also NEED to be easy, otherwise almost no one will play them. People who want complex damage rotations play DPSers. Giving Healers a mediocre damage kit will just alienate the people who don't like damage rotations (and play Healers for that reason) while also not appealing to people who want a "real" DPS kit, who will keep playing DPSers. It will only please a narrow sliver of the population, like as not. Which could already be achieved by just giving SCH its SB kit back.

when we could be enjoying a fun mini game like every other class that involves DPS or support.

Not everyone "enjoys" damage rotations. Again, if we did, most of us would be playing DPS Jobs. Many people do solo content, FATEs, and instanced duties on Healers and enjoy them. I love playing on Healers now, for example. I do Experts, PotD/HoH solo runs, Extremes, 24 mans, and occasionally Savages. I did the latest Extreme, Ex5, on RDM (since it was the only Practice party up when I had time) and got my clear, and hated almost every minute of it. I did it, but I did not enjoy it. On the other hand, I've healed all the other Extremes and enjoyed those (except Ex3, because Eff that place, lol), and I even tanked a few. But I've never enjoyed DPSing any of them. Did some ZodEx on SMN. It was...meh. I did it for farms and it wasn't abject misery, but I wouldn't describe it as fun. On the other hand, I healed it, even solo healed it on SGE quite a few times, and had a blast every time on Healer.

I'm not saying some people are DPSers or anything, but I am saying not everyone loves DPS rotations. I contend that some Healers should have them while others do not, then players may gravitate to the one they find most acceptable.

...but this is an aside we've had in dozens of threads and not really directly on topic, isn't it...

DPS can range from two or three buttons to most of your kit and encounters can be tuned to allow extreme failure with every option on the scale.

In theory, yes. But I've yet to see it happen. Until encounters are tuned with Enrages so generous to Healers doing 100% or 1% DPS - which would be so generous as to make them trivial (and that gray parsing SAM would still blame the Healer if the party hit an Enrage) - then "extreme failure" isn't allowed, and likely won't be.

But, again, I think the solution is a joint one: Make SCH SB again. Make AST SB again. Leave WHM alone. Tune SGE up around the edges. Then launch the expansion and see who gravitates to what and which Healers get played and to what extent. From there, more decisions can be made if necessary, though it may not even be necessary at that point.

Clearly what they should do is this: add damage tools (the quicker fix), under the pretense of 'oh yeh we're doing this so healers have something to do in 7.0, so that by 8.0 we'll have had a bigger time window to work out a better solution (eg, making fights actually do damage)'

Then if/when it turns out that actually, more damage tools WAS the solution all along, just nix the last part and say 'well we WERE going to look into alternatives, but the extra damage options were so well received we figured 'why rock the boat', so we'll be going ahead with adding even more damage options in 8.0'

Firstly: One could argue this for damage changes instead (e.g. encounter damage and oGCD cooldown, potency, and abundance decreasing)

Secondly: We could just do this with one Healer from each category (Pure and Barrier) and then run the test that way. Because if we do it all at once to all the Healers and it DOESN'T work, then what? All of 7.X there's a massive Healer shortage and almost no one can clear any content? That's a pretty big gamble...

Yes the push back is more damage spells because...

*ahem* Yeah, that is an example of the typical response.

(1) Fights wouldn't need to be remade. First of all, they TEND not to make a lot of changes other than a few balance tweaks on previous bosses. Second of all...you didn't really give a reason that fights would need to be remade. If the oGCDs were removed/weakened, you'd need GCDs for those cases you mention, and GCDs we still have. I'm not saying which is faster, I'm saying which is the problem. More DPS spells is a band-aid treating the symptom, not a treatment addressing the cause. It's saying "Encounter design sucks, but with a DPS rotation I'm slightly less bored (and people who don't like DPS rotations now hate playing the game)", which isn't a solution. It's like if you have a snake wrapped around your throat strangling you so you can't talk giving you a notepad and a pen so you can communicate despite the situation. It's not actually fixing anything.

(2) I think is more a case of balance/tuning and that FFXIV is designed to be much more strict and rigid than, say, FFXI is. Though I'm genuinely curious of the logic behind Repose vs Sleep. At one time, when they were Cross-Class, it might have made sense, but they aren't anymore. Casters have Lucid, why don't Healers have Sleep? There's no logic to it that I can tell. We don't have an AOE Esuna...but when do we NEED one? Like......ever? We have other tools besides damage. Mitigation actually is one. A part of me wishes they'd give the DPS mitigation kits to Healers. People certainly are quick to blame Healers when they die due to not enough mit, so may as well let us actually be the masters of mitigation.

(3) Is complex because a lot of people play Healers EXPLICITLY BECAUSE they don't like DPS rotations. I personally don't like DPS rotations. I avoid playing DPSers if at all possible. I will Tank for friends before I'll DPS because their "dps rotations" are slimmed down. I've never played a class in any type of MMO where I enjoyed the damage rotations on it. Ever. I've never found any that I liked, just some I hated slightly less than others, like Cataclysm Arcane Mage in WoW, which didn't play too differently than FFXIV Healers do. HOWEVERR, as I've noted before, the solution may be to mix and match. Give some Healer Jobs more DPS rotations and others less so players who like either can pick the one that matches their preference. But legit, giving Healers complex DPS rotations would probably cause an exodus of Healer players, and some would leave the game entirely since there are no other options. It MIGHT get some DPSers to try out Healing (GNB did with Tanking), but that was ONE Job in the role, not all four. It was what I was hoping SGE would do and was surprised when it did not.

(4) Honestly, I enjoy playing old content on WHM just fine. Again, this is a case of different people liking different things, I think. And there's only one solution that would actually satisfy everyone. And it's not giving all the Healers more DPS buttons...

Boss mechanics, as I've said, are way too spaced out (want a good example? Smileton is ridiculous with it) and again, don't usually hit random party members so you don't even have to do spot healing which would break it up. AoEs are too avoidable. Which usually leaves unavoidable raid wides and tank busters. Well tanks mitigate tank busters and they don't really hurt. And raid wides also, don't hurt. And both always come on a long enough cool down to where you have something up, even in lower levels.

This I somewhat agree with, though. But keep in mind those examples are from casual content for the most part. Don't cast a heal for all of P5S and see how far the party can prog before wiping. Heals ARE needed, they're just needed in short bursts, all at once, via overpowered oGCDs. That's the problem.

That requires a major rework of too many fights for it to be feasible (and in some cases it doesn't need to be that drastic but you get the point) and I don't see SE even MAKING fights in the upcoming expansion like this let alone fixing older ones, which is why we ask for damage.

They wouldn't rework any of them. Just as they haven't gone back and made all ARR and HW fights require EW oGCD toolkits. If you could go into ANY of those old encounters ilevel synced but with your full EW toolkit, they'd be trivial because of the amount of mitigations the Tanks have and how many oGCDs the Healers have. The team don't worry about old content outside of making sure players can still clear it. Any changes like this are forward looking. Prior content you can already unsync and completely one-shot, and the Devs aren't going back and changing it all. That's not the way they work.

[ASkellington]

snip

1. Is still a thing because it doesn't matter if I use a GCD or an oGCD. Damage is still infrequent. For damage to be more frequent, fights would have to change. Healing with Benefic 2 over Essential Dignity or A. Helios over my 4 oGCDs is just as engaging. So yes, fights would need to be rebalanced still if you want healing to be more fun, and that's not even including how our healing kit also would likely need to change.

2. Is on SE's dumb part. And I'm not waiting for them to reintroduce support tools OTHER than mitigation, which was my point. Addle, Feint? I don't care if we have those. They're a press of the button and done really and nothing truly interesting to deal with. We have our own versions of mitigation. I want some support OTHER that mitigation. Where is MP restore? Gone because we have 0 mana costs (another thing that makes healing boring btw). Why DON'T we have an AOE esuna and fights designed around using it? Why again CAN'T we use Repose/Sleep on a boss as a way to Interject? THOSE are the support tools I am asking for and SE stubbornly refuses to give. So again - damage.


3. There is 0 reason why all healers cannot have a Phlegma and another DoT to make solo content less tedious. That isn't a damage rotation like a dps. Do all healers need SCH's dps kit in SB? No. But does it need to stay 1 DoT and 1 nuke? Also no. AST or any other healer can have a small dps kit if there is to be more of a focus on something else or for it be easier, but there is 0 reason for one to stay as it is right now.

I agree with you, however that not all the healers should be brought to SCH's SB level, but ALL of them do need to be changed.

[Renathras]

...

(1) Right, but what I mean is that isn't an argument to change past designs. Leaving them alone makes them no worse than now. Even infrequent, that damage would be addressed by a GCD, thus breaking up the Glarespam. And the goal is to make healing in current content more engaging, not in redoing the entire game - your more DPS buttons solution wouldn't help since you wouldn't be getting them until SB or later content, so you'd still be going 60+ levels before you'd see anything that isn't Aero/Stone.

(2) I'm confused. You were complaining that we don't have more to do that isn't damage or healing, then complain that you don't want THAT not-damage thing. If we had fights designed around using Esuna, an AOE Esuna would trivialize them. I agree it'd be nice if we had fights that used Esuna, but fights that use Esuna would mean that we SHOULDN'T have an AOE Esuna. How is using an AOE Esuna in response to a debuff any different than using an AOE Afflataus Rapture in response to a damage wave? It's not. We dont' use Repose/Sleep on bosses as an interrupt because NO ONE interrupts bosses. Tanks have interrupts and don't use them on bosses because bosses don't have anything interruptable, and if they did, a Tanks oGCD would be the optimal tool to use, not a cast time spell that everyone would tell you you're bad for using just like people say PLD's using Clemency or RDM's using Vercure are bad. My point is you're asking for something other than healing to do...and then limiting it from the things we can actually have that aren't healing and saying the only thing you'd accept is stuff you know isn't going to happen. It's a tilted argument from the start.

(3) Solo content isn't tedious to a lot of people. There's zero reason all Healers NEED those. I think the problem here is that you think that all Healer players want what you do and feel the way you do. Many players find WHM, for example, fun and engaging. People solo Deep Dungeons on it, do MSQ on it, etc, and don't find it tedious or boring. It's explicitly WHY I think we should change SOME Healers but not ALL of them, so that both types of player have at least one they enjoy playing on. There's only one Healer in the game that has 1 DoT + 1 Nuke, and that's AST.

(4) When I say I don't think they all need to be changed, I'm genuine in that appraisal. It's not laziness or even familiarity that makes me think WHM is in a good place. I genuinely believe it IS. I think the encounter designs are wonky and that all the Healers should have less powerful oGCD tools. I won't repeat my full analysis here, but I genuinely believe that oGCD tools should be of two types - weak but commonly available tools (largely to augment GCDs, in some cases as quick semi-emergeny tools like Tetra or Benison could be) and powerful but rarely available tools (like when Benediction was a 6 min or whatever CD ability that you carefully planned for or only used in response to emergencies). That is, things you use alongside your GCDs (small/short) or things you save and use for emergencies or carefully planned events (big/long). The rest of the healing should be more GCD based, which also would mean things like MP would actually matter, and Jobs like Casters having that SB MP transfer ability would make sense and allow for skill expression and utility in other Roles as well. WHM MOSTLY has this going for it, with the only exception being that Lilies are MP free, but that's an acceptable compromise to me. I'd like it if WHM's other GCDs generated Blood Lily as well, so that the trade off between Medica and Rapture was MP and immobility vs mobility at the cost of consuming a resource, but that would make it a meaningful choice on the part of the WHM as to which to use as opposed to the automatic decision that Rapture is automatically better, or if it's about to be up, Assize and just forget using a GCD entirely. Further, as discussed in this thread, WHM is the Healer right now that has the least reliance on its spam GCD damage button; an unexpected thing that I don't think anyone really saw coming.

Note that this is also a place where Healers COULD be more distinct from each other, less homogenized and less samey. I liked the WHM/SCH dichotomy of ARR, which worked because WHMs were GCD direct healers while SCHs were more combat oriented Cleric stance with Lustrate/Eos oGCD side healing. The two worked well together and the two appealed to COMPLETELY different types of player...and pretty much everyone was happy with it. Both could clear lower level/casual content, and in hard team content, each had a place and stood side by side while appealing to disparate player types. This wasn't some other MMO, this wasn't 1.0, this was ARR. And it worked. SCH as an oGCD Healer focusing more of their GCD effort on DPS while activating oGCDs for healing, WHM as a GCD healer (which is still is today via Lilies, people just tend not to think of those as GCDs because they're instant and feed into Misery, a damage spell) focused more on party health bars and doing light filler damage when their attention wasn't needed on healing.

WHM is the only one more or less where it needs to be right now, I think. The only straight up change I think it really NEEDS is to make Plenary a lesser (5%) damage reduction so WHM has as many mits as AST does, even if they're different types. This is the single and only area it cannot compete with the other three Healers since they ALL have at least relatively available mit and WHM does not. Once Temperance is burned, that's it, they're reliant on someone else in the party to mitigate for the next 120 seconds.

If I was going to make any more changes, the second change I'd make is for all WHM GCD heals to generate 1/3rd Blood Lily, and the third I'd make is to make Cure 2 a straight upgrade (same cast time and MP cost) of Cure 1. I think it'd be 5-7th change on my list before I would even get into DPS spells, and it would probably be something like make Assize a GCD with a 40 sec CD and 2 charges, and to add a low level "Water" spell that is an AOE CNJ would get around level 15 or so that upgrades to Holy at 45 so low level WHM's would have an AOE tool. (I think of FF9's Vivi's Water spell where it makes a big sphere that floats up then bursts - kinda like Holy does.)

SGE I think is close-ish. I feel like Toxicon needs to be damage neutral so that SGE using its GCD barriers (maybe heals, too, but definitely barriers) can actually generate more of it. Outside of that, a second short duration Kardia it can place on a second target (basically a variation of Synastry/WoW PLD Beacon of Light that lasts for ~3-4 GCDs), as well as an AOE one. Basically give it those tools on shortish (45-60 sec?) CDs so that they can actually do most of their healing with Kardia augmented a bit by Addersgall and have their big CDs be big/long CDs as outlined above, possibly with a touch of pruning. SGE having a damage rotation is a fine thought, and would work well with the extra Kardia options, but isn't strictly necessary for it to be where it needs to be, it's more an added bonus if we're extra frisky.

SCH and AST, on the other hand...are NOT where they need to be.

They are the ones casting their Broil/Malific the most, and they are the ones with weird optimization and battle systems. SCH has Ruin 2 but no reason to use it.

SCH has the most powerful and extensive oGCD kit in the game aside from MAYBE AST yet doesn't use Ruin 2 to employ them nor has a second DoT to use with its lesser need/reliance on GCDs and more free GCD slots to burn. Hell, a 15 sec duration SHADOW FLARE (GCD 2.5 sec cast) would give them SOMEthing (and, bonus points, work in AOE too!), as would Miasma and/or Miasma 2, etc.

AST has the simplest GCD rotation of all the Healers, yet its oGCDs are too powerful to make meaningful gameplay choices with them, and its Card system we've talked about at length needing adjustment. Many people would even agree that AST doesn't need more damage buttons as they'd overwhelm its players, what it needs is a more interesting Card system and a more effective way to use them. It's one reason my suggestion for AST is to make Cards on the GCD to give them a bit more time between all the target/retargeting they need to do, and this would also making having more interesting Cards that require more thinking WORK.

I'm not being a contrarian when I say it:

I don't think all the Healers DO need to be changed.

I think SCH and AST absolutely do.

I think SGE might need some changes but also largely works.

I think WHM is more or less where it needs to be and would take it as-is, though I'd accept a few tweaks that give it more engagement with its GCD HEALING kit.

[IDontPetLalas]

It's interesting how frequently that you respond with rebuttal such as "Solo content isn't tedious to a lot of people. There's zero reason all Healers NEED those. I think the problem here is that you think that all Healer players want what you do and feel the way you do. Many players find WHM, for example, fun and engaging"

You are backing up your opinion, and based upon likely empirical evidence and claiming it as fact- when you aren't providing any factual evidence (independently sourced metrics) to back it up.

Given that- it remains an argument of one person's preference versus another person's preference. You are "being a contrarian" , you have held to some positions- one for example being "It's explicitly WHY I think we should change SOME Healers but not ALL of them, so that both types of player have at least one they enjoy playing on. There's only one Healer in the game that has 1 DoT + 1 Nuke, and that's AST." - you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, however that isn't one that everyone holds.

[Silver-Strider]

Revolt

This occurred because of a combination of reasons.

They removed Energy Drain without reallocating the MP restore from it.
They increased the cost of Addlo/Succor to ridiculous levels that made them unsustainable.
Both Quickened Aetherflow and the Fairy Gauge required burning thru excess stacks to make the most out of them but with nothing but Lustrate there was very few ways to utilize either of them without overhealing.
Couple this with the butchering of WHM and the Revolt was inevitable. Viva la revolución.

As for what I would like for heals to do, being a part of a cohesive toolkit would be a nice start. There's too much overlap in terms of what skills do and no real justification for it. Why would I ever hit Cure 2 before Afflatus Solace or Tetra? Medica over Rapture or Assize when it lines up? There simply isn't any reason to do so because the former all have cast times and MP costs associated with them on top of being a DPS loss to utilize whereas the latter don't. I would like there to be a reason other than "shit has hit the fan". If Healers could also differentiate themselves from one another that would be a great bonus on top.

So, keeping with WHM for a moment, here's what I would do.

1. Turn Solace/Rapture into traits for Cure 2/Medica. If you have a Lily up, they turn into the corresponding skill. Throw in an Afflatus version of Cure 3 as well for good measure.
2. Return Aero 3 but have it and Dia function similarly to BLM's Thunder Spells so they don't overlap and include the Thundercloud proc into the mix, going off of Regen/Medica 2, so that good Regen uptime is actually rewarding to accomplish. With them frontloading their DoT damage on the initial hit, not only would they do slightly more damage than the 2 Glares that would be lost from Regens->Aeros but you also have short timers to maintain again, much like what people miss with the removal of DoT playstyles.
3. I would have Tetra grant a Lily upon usage as to justify why it has the longest CD and lowest potency of all the ST healing CDs.
4. I'd lower the CD of Temperance down to 60s and just flat out remove PI. Between Regens actually being worth a damn to keep up frequently, Afflatus skills now including Cure 3 in the mix and Temperance being a 60s CD, there's no real need for PI anymore. Only other option would be to turn it into an AoE Shield Effect and I wouldn't argue if that was the case but the current form of PI wouldn't be needed with the rest of the changes.

That pretty much leaves the oGCDs like Asylum, Assize, etc unaccounted for but that's the gist of what I would do with WHM. I might be more inclined to revert the 1.5s cast time on Glare back to 2.5 and give it Water/Flood as a Ruin 2 equivalent skill just to further differentiate it from the other healers but that just trades the 1.5s cast time for a Ruin 2 skill so its not that much of a difference.

[Renathras]

It's interesting how frequently that you respond with rebuttal such as "Solo content isn't tedious to a lot of people. There's zero reason all Healers NEED those. I think the problem here is that you think that all Healer players want what you do and feel the way you do. Many players find WHM, for example, fun and engaging"

You are backing up your opinion, and based upon likely empirical evidence and claiming it as fact- when you aren't providing any factual evidence (independently sourced metrics) to back it up.

Yet another attempt to derail a thread. Where to even begin? I'll stick this in an HB so it doesn't derail the thread itself.

1) There is not "zero reason" for any Healer to stay as it is now. There are several, which I've articulated before and some here. In brief:

- Some people like Healers as they are right now and wouldn't like the changes. This is AT THE VERY LEAST a reason to keep AT LEAST ONE Healer as it exists presently.
- Some of the Healer kits right now actually work very well, both in the game system/mechanics terms and in the kit's identity. WHM and SGE, as I've discussed previously, both do. There's a risk to "fixing what isn't broken".
- The Devs don't exactly have a track record of "fixing" Jobs that ends up with more people happy with them than there were before their changes. PLD, Kaiten, and SMN are the shortlist (though I contend they probably got it right with SMN, but still alienated a lot of people by removing Green Mage)
- Changing some but not all Healer kits reduces the risk of Healer role collapse if the changes aren't well received. Say for the sake of argument we add more DPS kits to all the Healers, but it turns out it was only a small minority that wanted them and, in fact, the majority of Healers in the game very much did not, to the point they quit the role or quit the game. Perhaps there are additional new Healers from the other roles, but not enough to make up the difference and we have the worst Healer shortage in the game's history, far worse than SB or 6.2. That problem wouldn't materialize if one or two of the Healer Jobs were not changed, since many of those players would migrate to those Jobs instead of leaving the role/game, either minimizing or preventing the collapse and allowing the changed Jobs to attract new members to the role without causing the high level of losses that changing all of the Healer Jobs would result in.

There are more, but there are three reasons. And as we know from math, 3 does not equal 0. So there are not zero reasons, there are several, for not changing all the Healer kits.

2) Note that I use "a lot" or "some" while other people use absolute terms, such as "to make solo content less tedious" (implicitly assuming that solo content is tedious to everyone when it is not); interesting that you have no issue with false absolute statements - which are opinions presenting themselves as facts - while my own positions are more limited and measured - because I recognize that they are not universal. "a lot" is not a majority. 1000 is a lot. In a game of 4-5 million players and 500,000-1 million healers, 10 thousand would still be a lot. Do you really believe there are NOT a lot of players who are fine with Healers as they are? Really? Likewise "many". Note I'm not the one claiming total or majority support of my positions. I'm also the one that holds that even if you guys WERE a minority, I'd still want you to have something you enjoy; a consideration none of you, over months of threads, have extended to those who don't think like you do, I might add...

3) I'm basing my opinion on the fact that we have a diverse playerbase and it is HIGHLY probable that a not insignificant percentage of them think like I do. I base this on the fact that I think like a more traditional MMO healer and that many players do not frequent the forums and seem not to have the complaints that you do. Again, I make no statements on the SIZE of this population other than it is non-zero and consists of a not-insignificant amount of people. I've estimated before it could be anywhere from 15-70%, where even at the lowest end, it would still comprise around 1/6th to 1/5th of all Healers - an entirely reasonable position given MMO populations, the relatively few Healers that come to the forums to voice complaints, etc. An entirely reasonable position that, again, none of you seem willing to admit to (since it would likely justify an argument to leave at least one Healer alone...)

4) I claimed nothing "as fact", though what I said very likely IS true - "a lot of people" likely do not find Healer solo content tedious, and "Many players" likely do find WHM fun and engaging. A not insignificant, non-zero number of Healer players do not think as you do (note that one isn't a likely; that one IS true, though it's impossible to say what that non-zero number is)

5) None of you have provided factual evidence or independently sourced metrics to back up your position that even a majority of Healers want the changes you propose, nor a commanding enough majority to have them all changed, nor that there are no minorities of any size that would disagree and be deserving of at least one left for them, nor that there are NO such people (a statement you'd know is a lie because I'm one such person, proving it's a non-zero number). Contrasting that, I have, in various threads, provided census numbers, clear rates, and ability analysis across the game's history - which is far more than any of you have done. The closest is an anecdotal statement (with no actual statistical support or data presented) that Healer numbers have collapsed post P5-8 release. Yet you attack me for my position which is far more sourced and supported than your own, which hasn't been by you or any of the posters agreeing with your position...

6)

Given that- it remains an argument of one person's preference versus another person's preference.

You mean the very thing I have stated numerous times up to this point?? That we all have different preferences and that the Healer/playerbase likely has a spread of preferences such that the Healers should NOT be made all the same (simple OR complex) as that would be denying many people a Healer Job that appeals to their preferences? THANK YOU for agreeing with me. Though it's rather untoward of you to do so only by acting like I didn't already hold that very selfsame position before you here. Indeed, I hold it now and you do not - your post indicates that you still think my position is not held by others, or at least, not by enough to matter.

7)

You are "being a contrarian" , you have held to some positions- one for example being "It's explicitly WHY I think we should change SOME Healers but not ALL of them, so that both types of player have at least one they enjoy playing on. There's only one Healer in the game that has 1 DoT + 1 Nuke, and that's AST."

I hope you realize "stating a fact" is not "being a contrarian". Unless you thought I meant the other Healers don't have 1 DoT + 1 Nuke? My statement was that only one Healer has that AND NOTHING ELSE. Though it's not MUCH else, WHM has Misery, SCH has Ruin 2 (ED isn't a GCD), and SCH has Plegma/Toxicon/Pneuma. Stating a fact isn't stating an opinion. And even if it were; stating an opinion isn't being a contrarian. Being a contrarian is choosing to hold or present a position opposite everyone else's for no other reason than that you want to hold/present an opposed position. In my case, I present my position as I said above - because I genuinely believe it.

8)

you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, however that isn't one that everyone holds.

Irony, thy name is...

You realize that I'm the only one here who HASN'T stated my position is universal and that everyone holds it, or some statement close enough to that to make no difference? I'm the one here who couches my statements with "many", "some", "a lot", "a not-insignificant amount", and so on; implicitly if not explicitly NOT saying my position is majority, much less universal. While you guys describe your opinions as universal truths, what I do is call your attention to the fact they are not universal.

When I many people don't think or feel as you do, that's not me saying NO ONE does or that EVERYONE agrees with me.

It's me saying a not-insignificant, non-zero amount of people disagree with you. It could be a minority, it could be a plurality, it could be a majority. I don't know, so I don't say. But it's not zero, and it's not insignificant. You're the one supporting posters arguing that your position is absolute, or near enough to not matter.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion (something I've said many times), however that isn't one that everyone holds. And no, I'm not turning your words against you - these are literally the same words I've said many times before now, and in threads you've been an active part in. You can't not know that I hold this position. Especially as you often act as if you do not...

This occurred because of a combination of reasons.

I agree, but the point still remains: The Devs tried to say something about what they wanted Healer design to be and the community refused to accept it. Set aside Energy Drain (for the MP issue) and note that the community also largely (or, if a minority, a vocal one that is still of significant size) has rejected the push towards Healers dealing less damage or having less involved damage kits. You can list any number of reasons for this, but the end result is the same - the Devs took actions in one direction and the community refused to accept it.

I also am confused: What "butchering of WHM"?

WHM was only "butchered" in SB, it was made whole in ShB, not "butchered". And arguably HW. Removing Aero 3 to add Misery and the fantastic ShB Lily system that made WHM not suck anymore like it did in SB - there's no rational person I've ever seen argue that SB WHM was actually good when pressed - was not a "butchering". WHM in ShB was better than WHM in SB, full stop. AT WORST it was a side grade, but it wasn't a side grade, it was an improvement. WHM in EW is, as this very thread has pointed out, more developed, engaging, and WORKS than ShB or SB. And yes, that's all that was changed for WHM from SB to ShB. Aero 3 was removed (Aero 1 had been removed in 4.0), Presence of Mind 2 (the redundant non-toggle Cleric Stance) was removed (Cleric Stance 1.0 was removed in 4.0), the terribad 4.0 Lily system was removed, the generally considered pointless Fluid Aura was removed and replaced with the actually good Divine Benison (Fluid Aura was made worthless in 4.0, not 5.0), and the actually good Lilies (which at the time weren't damage neutral but were arguably close to it) were added and WHM was actually considered a worthwhile healer in ShB where it was considered bad in SB. WHM also got a 1.5 sec Glare in 6.0 to use for weaving (something it, unlike SCH who had Ruin 2, arguably actually needs; recasting Dia over and over during the Bozja Wraith miniboss fight because I had NOTHING ELSE on WHM to use while moving and Glare's cast was too long to slidecast at all with felt terrible) which was also an improvement.

I think the ONE thing I might consider reverting from EW would be Thin Air, though this targeted one is kind of growing on me, I did like the 15 seconds of free casting...

I'm trying to think of anything else of value changed from SB to ShB, and I can't think of anything. The only thing lost of any worth was Aero 3. The other stuff was either already made worthless/pointless in 4.0 or already removed outright in 4.0.

Anyway, getting to it:

Why would I ever hit Cure 2 before Afflatus Solace or Tetra? Medica over Rapture or Assize when it lines up? There simply isn't any reason to do so because the former all have cast times and MP costs associated with them on top of being a DPS loss to utilize whereas the latter don't. I would like there to be a reason other than "shit has hit the fan". If Healers could also differentiate themselves from one another that would be a great bonus on top.

I literally just proposed a solution for this:

1) Make Cure 1 upgrade to Cure 2 (direct upgrade, so Cure 2's MP cost would be 400 and cast time 1.5 sec base; AST nearly has this already and WHM is the one that's supposed to be the strong throughput Healer)

2) Make all WHM GCDs generate 1/3rd Blood Lily on use (that is, they're now all damage neutral). This makes all GCD heals for WHM be a choice - "Do I want to stand still and expend MP on this, or do I want to expend a limited resource that I might rather save for movement later?", as the damage being neutral between Cure 2 and Solace or Medica and Rapture makes it an actual choice rather than one being objectively better. You only have one Lily and expect a movement heavy mechanic coming within the next 10-15 seconds before you have another Lily up? In such cases, Medica/Cure 2 or even Medica 2 for the HoT might be better to cast now so you have that Lily for the upcoming movement phase. It provides an actual choice because there are actual use case differences and trade-offs, even if they heal for the same potency. Right now, that choice doesn't exist because Medica/Cure 2 incur an MP, movement, and damage penalty, and the last one of those is too damning to make them usable. (Also the 400 MP Cure 2 cost - hell, even 500 - would make it MP neutral vs a Glare cast)

3) PROBABLY have Medica 1 upgrade to Medica 2. It's a flat upgrade, it just needs its tooltip adjusted. Medica 1 can read "250 potency heal, Regen 150 potency for 3 sec" (one tick, maybe two ticks). Medica 2 has its MP cost reduced by 100 and is now a straight upgrade, problem solved.

Now the basic healing kit is:

Cure 2 / Solace / Tetra for single target healing. Solace has higher priority if you have Lilies to spare and/or no movement coming up, Cure 2 if you have 1 or less Lilies and/or expect movement to be coming up, Tetra if you need an immediate spot heal regardless of whatever else you're doing (if you're mid-cast on a Glare, Solace will be too slow). They now have distinct use cases and Cure 2 and Solace have trade-offs to make using one or the other both justifiable choices (actual choice!) based on the situation, with Tetra being more of a backup item in case of emergencies.

Medica 2 / Rapture for AOE healing, with the same Cure 2/Solace argument of MP and cast time vs movement and a limited resource. Assize is still used on CD as long as it has the damage component (which no one is arguing to remove), so is only part of the equation if it's about to come off CD or has JUST come off CD and you don't mind a few seconds drift on it. There's an argument to make Assize have 2 charges, but that would upend this, so better not. Again, this is actual choice rather than one option always being better by default.

My goal in any changes is to increase player choice and remove "this one is always better" situations. At least, for stuff like this. Doing things like having Cure 2/Medica replaced with Solace/Rapture if a Lily is up removes choice.

4) Making Plenary a minor (5% or 10% on a shorter duration) party mitigation would patch the hole WHM presently has. Temparance down to 60 seconds helps, but WHM would still be one short vs the other Healers and most encounters. If you're actually trying in 4 mans (where you have no other Healer), you start to notice really quickly that the other three have 3 mitigations per 2 mins but WHM does not. For example, Ra La's raidwides or the final boss from Alzadaal's Legacy have either a party-wide every 30 second or a bit more often than 60 sec (I for get which), and where even AST has a CD for that, WHM does not and its noticeable. While in more serious content you SHOULD always have a second Healer, even AST has tools for that. So unless we're removing mitigations from the other Healers (something I oppose), WHM needs to gain ~2 per 120 sec over what it has now.

.

I personally oppose the "if you have a Lily up" idea - yours isn't the first time I've seen it - because there ARE cases where I want to hold a Lily for something, and removing that choice is not an improvement. It's akin to arguing that Tanks/Melee/MCH should have their 1-2-3 condensed into a single button. Note that if all the GCDs were instant cast base, that WOULDN'T be an issue, but the only one that is is Regen. Also note this isn't an issue with Cure 1 (which I see no reason not to remove) because it doesn't really have a distinct use case. The use case for Cure 1 is EXTREMELY narrow - you have less than 1000 MP but greater than 400 MP and/or you need a heal in less than 2 seconds but greater than 1.5 sec. This is not true of Medica/Cure 2, which have distinct use cases. It'd be like telling a BLM that Xenoglossy and Fire 4 were basically the same thing and to turn the Fire 4 button into Xenoglossy whenever a Polyglot stack is up. While both have the effect of "does damage", and you DO want to use Polyglot stacks before overcapping, the use cases are still distinct. And if Medica/Cure 2/etc all generated 1/3rd Blood Lily, there would actually be a viable trade-off there that presently does not exist - there are cases where you wish to conserve limited resources and where MP would not be your most limiting resource.

I'm a bit confused about your Aero 3. By "similarly to BLM's Thunder Spells", do you mean the way Thunder 2/4 are AOE only and Thunder 1/3 are single target only? I'm not sure that's worth justifying another Hotbar slot, honestly. I'm also a bit confused on your Thundercloud proc. Wouldn't that end up with people complaining they have to overheal with Regen/Medica 2? And by "proc" you mean "not guaranteed", right? Meaning if it doesn't proc, using them would be a DPS loss? Where if we just make them contribute to the Blood Lily, they're guaranteed damage neutral...

Also: Not everyone likes having "short timers to maintain". Especially if we change the other Healers to where they all DO have them...

Making Water/Flood a Ruin 2 equivalent wouldn't differentiate it, it would make it look more like SCH while contributing to button bloat with no gain; even if we just look at your model (not mine), Regen would be the preferred instant cast GCD weave, not Water/Ruin 2. Making Water a low level AOE that upgrades into Holy would actually make it more distinct...

.

But, allow me to veer to a different question:

What would you do with SCH and AST?

EVERYONE seems to want to change WHM - the one Healer that needs changing the least - but we don't all even agree on that.

But EVERYONE agrees that SCH and AST need to be changed...so instead of proposals for WHM, what would you propose for the Healers we all agree should be changed?

Or do we all agree so much you just agree with my own stated positions on both, such as bringing back all of SCH's SB abilities and making AST Cards on the GCD?

[Silver-Strider]

WHM butchering

I was referring to SB WHM, which happened alongside the 1st attempt to remove Energy Drain.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the proposed changes to WHM.

What would you do with SCH and AST?

I'm just gonna copy over some ideas I had for SCH from another thread. Although it's somewhat more controversial than my WHM suggestions.

Just bear with me as it's far from being complete given that SCH has a vast array of gameplay elements to it, from the pet, to Aetherflow, to Energy Drain, etc. that I needed to consider and for all of my theorycrafting, I am still not 100% on some of the suggestions myself as of yet nor do I have ideas for some skills. The overall Goal was to reduce the need for our oGCD heals by both expending the DPS toolkit to provide some level of utility and to make the GCD healing toolkit work in a way that would benefit DPS but not handicap the healing side of things. There are some buffs to the oGCD healing side of things but there is also some skills that I want to remove.

GCD healing:
Addlo could be given a damage reflection element to it.
Succor could be used for both healing and to refresh/extend SCH's DoTs.

Physick I am at a loss. Upgrading it to Addlo at level 30 is an obvious solution but then there's also the option of just making every healer's Cure 1 equivalent skill have an Esuna effect added to them. You remove 1 skill either way so they both work.

DPS:
Broil and Ruin 2 now offer 5 Fairy Gauge.
Miasma returns and stacks with Bio with both having a 50% proc to grant 5 gauge per tic.
Shadowflare returns as an oGCD DoT that lasts 15s on a 60s CD but instead of a Slow effect, it grants the Protraction effect to any ally that enters the Dome for 10s. This way, it can remain useful for all content since most bosses are immune to the Slow effect and it would normally be centered on the Tank since that's where the enemies generally are so that they can still receive the benefits of Protraction.
Bane is added as a 15s DoT on a 60s CD that doesn't build Fairy Gauge but turns the ability into Fester. Using Fester causes Bane's DoT to expire but reduces the damage the Target does by 5% for the remaining duration of Bane's DoT timer upon use.

Aetherflow: I am honestly completely stumped here.
Indom is in contention with Fey Blessing and Succor now so would we really need it? Either Indom or Blessing would need to go but I'm more invested in keeping Blessing than Indom since otherwise it becomes harder to balance the Fairy Gauge unless I add a new Fairy Ability, which defeats the purpose of reducing the over abundance of oGCD healing tools.
The can of worms that is Energy Drain is also something that I can't really think of what to do with. SCH should have plenty of DPS tools now that it wouldn't really need it and if we're reducing oGCD healing tools, we might need to use more Aetherflow abilities more often.

Fairies:
Eos
Whispering Dawn now lasts for 15s with a cure potency of 120. 60s CD remains unchanged.
Fey Blessing CD reduced to 30s
Fey Illumination now provides a 15% Healing buff with 8% mitigation on a 60s CD
Selene
Whispering Dawn now lasts for 24s with a cure potency of 75. 60s CD remains unchanged.
Fey Blessing CD reduced to 30s. Provides a 380 potency Shield instead of a heal.
Fey Covenant provides a 15% mitigation effect with a 8% Healing Buff on a 60s CD.

Fairy Gauge:
Starts off at 100 upon entering an instance.
Whispering Dawn, Fey Blessing and Fey Covenant/Illumination cost 25 gauge.
Aetherpact costs 50 gauge and summons your unused fairy to the target to provide healing for 15s. This way you can use your other fairy skills without needing to worry about the tether turning off.
Seraph costs 50 gauge but Angel's Whisper, Consolation and Seraph Illumination can be cast without cost.

Misc:
Dissipation no longer dispels your fairy nor grants Aetherflow but instead allows the use of 1 fairy ability with no cost.
Alternatively, Dissipation and Recitation could be reworked to allow 1 free Aetherflow or Fairy ability usage with 2 charges, Recitation just allowing the skill to Crit over Dissipation.
Expendant is also something I hesitate to touch since it's still useful, even after the nerf but with the buff to Covenant/Illumination, do we need it?

Like I said, it's a work in progress and it might not provide the full picture of anything either but hopefully, it can at least give some context to my thought process.

As for AST, I've never really given it as much thought as WHM or SCH, which are my preferred jobs, so I'm not really sure on how to improve on it much.
I suppose the main thing I would do would be to separate cards into 2 categories, Major/Minor Arcana.
Major Arcana would provide the generic DPS card buffs. Whether they remain just flat damage buffs or focus more on stat buffs can go either way for me really.
Minor Arcana would be support cards that grant mitigation, extra healing, or shielding.
I'd change Undraw to Hand of Fate, that turns the currently drawn card into Lord/Lady of Crown instead of being a meaningless button.
While I hesitate to change their healing skills since they work fine, something that I would like to see would be an emphasis on Regens. Similar to how old CO would extend the duration of buffs that the AST gave, I would like to see that mechanic return as well as an inverse of it where they could trade away a Regen to turn it into a burst heal instead.
I don't really see a reason to keep the Seal system either. Astrodyne is a weak skill, even at 3 seals, that they could probably just turn it into a 2 minute buff with all 3 bonuses without it really impacting AST all that much.

Not really sure what else to do with AST though so take that with a grain of salt.

Edit: This is what happens when you post at 2am lol. I'll edit this to clarify some things.

[ForsakenRoe]

The problems this game has worst, imo, is when they make everything the same. This goes for making all Jobs simple but ALSO for making all Jobs complex. There should be a spectrum. In HW, when SCH was that way, WHM was not and AST was...well...AST.

Moreover, I think the reason for the "no way to fail" is because so many Healers quit the role in HW and SB that the Devs were trying to make it so people didn't have "Healxiety" and would actually que up as Healers more, since there were massive Healer shortages.

As you say, though I don't agree with it personally, the Devs also thought "Healing NEEDS to be easy." But that thought extends to Healer damage kits. They also NEED to be easy, otherwise almost no one will play them. People who want complex damage rotations play DPSers. Giving Healers a mediocre damage kit will just alienate the people who don't like damage rotations (and play Healers for that reason) while also not appealing to people who want a "real" DPS kit, who will keep playing DPSers. It will only please a narrow sliver of the population, like as not. Which could already be achieved by just giving SCH its SB kit back.

I read all the other posts since this one I'm quoting but I have to ask about this specifically. Emphasis mine, just want to find out how you square this assertion with the data you posted in that other thread a while back, which says:



At least, if I'm reading it right, that HW was the highest level of healer playerbase we've ever had and while there's currently an uptick of sorts, we've never been close to what we had back then? People quit in SB, I'll agree on that, the data says that too. But HW? It seems that, if these numbers are to be believed, HW was the peak of 'people want to play healer' and we've never had it anywhere close to as high as back then ever since, even with a new healer class being released

[IDontPetLalas]

Yet another attempt to derail a thread. Where to even begin? I'll stick this in an HB so it doesn't derail the thread itself.

Yet you attack me for my position which is far more sourced and supported than your own, which hasn't been by you or any of the posters agreeing with your position...

6)
Snip .....
IDontPetLalas's Avatar
Quote Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas View Post
Given that- it remains an argument of one person's preference versus another person's preference.
You mean the very thing I have stated numerous times up to this point?? That we all have different preferences and that the Healer/playerbase likely has a spread of preferences such that the Healers should NOT be made all the same (simple OR complex) as that would be denying many people a Healer Job that appeals to their preferences? THANK YOU for agreeing with me. Though it's rather untoward of you to do so only by acting like I didn't already hold that very selfsame position before you here. Indeed, I hold it now and you do not - your post indicates that you still think my position is not held by others, or at least, not by enough to matter.

So to address a number of points: as per (3) so you really don't have any idea of how many people share your position. Which is fine, neither does anyone else here on the forum - that does mean that throwing around "a lot" is extremely subjective, and no it doesn't derail the thread. That also impacts (4) for example - you just don't know. It could be 1 % of the healers, 5 or 20. No idea. 5) So hundreds of pages of healer feedback are meaningless ? In addition, in any change there are going to be minorities that disagree , that isn't going to ever be avoided. That shouldn't prevent change, it can however be managed, and it's something I handle all of the time (6) Nice try at taking my words out of context to justify your position of leaving "one healer as it is" but no, that isn't at all what that meant. (7) understood! (8) on this you are incorrect and I will leave it at that

Finally..there's the cherry on the cake mention of "attacking you". Really? Because your argument (not you personally) is challenged?

[ForsakenRoe]

All I'm gonna say is, if SE had a PTR where we could test 'SB WHM, with current Lilies and skills added', I would put actual money on the vast majority saying 'this is great'. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'd lose my money on the bet, but I'm confident enough in my assertions to make it. We only have to have these 'nuh uh my way would be better' because we're unable to put them to the test. It's all well and good insisting that 'no if we had all the healers have actual skill ceilings (skill floor remains as is) then EVERYONE would quit and the servers would explode and Blizzard would buy out SE and turn the game into a glorified Hearthstone lobby' when there's no way to disprove that statement. But if we had a seperate client for 'testing' stuff, we could put some of these false assertions in the grave where they belong

It wouldn't even need to necessarily take server space. Could make a 'lab room' of just plain white nothing forever, with a training dummy in the center, and have the game client look at localhost instead of the server IP, and essentially 'host' the 'server' on the player's own machine. We've got the benchmark program, something similar with a 'playtest these moves for us and give feedback on the forums' should be doable. At least, if the 'spaghetti code' issue is as solved as they claim