Narrative Exploration: A Garlemald Expansion

[SaitoHikari]

I can't blame you for wanting to do real empire a justice, but what do you realistically think that Garleans can offer? They do some experiments, use modern age technology and that's about it. We've already even seen their capital. At best, story could revolve around ceruleum, aether or yet another ultimate machine or what not. If they end up as allies, we would need to spend significant portion of the story being Alliance's errand boy in their diplomatic politics, and if they end up as enemies once again, we fight yet another ultimate weapon. Which is why I think it's better to put their story to a side and give new factions and new stories a chance.

You are clearly not reading my posts.

The Garlean Empire is done. I am not arguing otherwise. While I am unhappy with how rushed their downfall was, I also fully recognize that all of this could be salvaged and might actually get turned into something much better for the game's overall narrative if we got a proper follow-up on the fate of the Garlean people, so it doesn't look like damn near everyone in that faction just got off-screened with the narrative calling it a day after that. Remember that at the start of Endwalker, the game was constantly hammering it into our heads that we were going to Garlemald to rescue the people because they've been manipulated throughout history. We did save them from certain death, but what comes next? We did see Ishgard ending their isolation, and we saw Ala Mhigo and Doma rebuild. It's insanely weird to me that people are just arbitrarily deciding that the Garleans have nothing else to contribute to the story. If we seriously just go off across the seas or onto another shard next expansion without any substantial follow-up, it's going to leave a highly noticeable hole in the overall narrative that people are going to rightfully keep bringing up for years. Especially since it'd send a problematic message that's highly contradictory to the game's overall themes, that it's okay for everyone to display immense apathy at the current situation and let them all suffer out of sight just because the (now dead) leadership went on a massive power trip.

(Admittedly, it could actually make for something very interesting if the story is actually angling itself to address this later - Alphinaud in the latest patch did mention something to the effect that their efforts to help the survivors in Garlemald is currently dependent on support from the neighboring nations, implying that said charity might end up drying up later.)

I dunno, I'm mostly just raising the alarm now because I've seen how reactionary the devs can be to the whims of the fanbase, and a huge chunk of the fanbase seems to be outright demanding that we move on to something completely new ASAP. I, for one, would much, MUCH rather go to Corvos and fully explore the Three Great Continents first before going anywhere else, though this might piss off a lot of people who want to go to the New World especially. But I'd much rather the game shore up its lore and world building first, instead of rushing us in entirely different directions in ways that can't be walked back.

[MikkoAkure]

I dunno, I'm mostly just raising the alarm now because I've seen how reactionary the devs can be to the whims of the fanbase, and a huge chunk of the fanbase seems to be outright demanding that we move on to something completely new ASAP. I, for one, would much, MUCH rather go to Corvos and fully explore the Three Great Continents first before going anywhere else, though this might piss off a lot of people who want to go to the New World especially. But I'd much rather the game shore up its lore and world building first, instead of rushing us in entirely different directions in ways that can't be walked back.

I don't think that it's as much the playerbase than it is Yoshi-P who wants to move onto something completely new. The story he inherited is over and done and now he has the ability to do something else so I'm sure he'd take a fresh start over the leftovers of the previous story.

Either way, 7.0's story is already written so "raising the alarm" now isn't going to get anywhere.

[Deo14]

The Garlean Empire is done. I am not arguing otherwise. While I am unhappy with how rushed their downfall was, I also fully recognize that all of this could be salvaged and might actually get turned into something much better for the game's overall narrative if we got a proper follow-up on the fate of the Garlean people, so it doesn't look like damn near everyone in that faction just got off-screened with the narrative calling it a day after that. Remember that at the start of Endwalker, the game was constantly hammering it into our heads that we were going to Garlemald to rescue the people because they've been manipulated throughout history. We did save them from certain death, but what comes next? We did see Ishgard ending their isolation, and we saw Ala Mhigo and Doma rebuild. It's insanely weird to me that people are just arbitrarily deciding that the Garleans have nothing else to contribute to the story. If we seriously just go off across the seas or onto another shard next expansion without any substantial follow-up, it's going to leave a highly noticeable hole in the overall narrative that people are going to rightfully keep bringing up for years. Especially since it'd send a problematic message that's highly contradictory to the game's overall themes, that it's okay for everyone to display immense apathy at the current situation and let them all suffer out of sight just because the (now dead) leadership went on a massive power trip.

That sounds like side content. What do you want the story to be? We, the good old philanthropic Alliance will once again help the poor faction get back on their feet?. Sure, it makes sense, but it's not really some juicy content deserving to be part of main story, and definitely not whole expansion. IMO Garlean restoration which is similar to Ishgard restoration makes most sense. They have modern technology, so there's potential for some cool DoH/DoL interactions and building brand new capital seems most logical. If they ended up with better relations with Alliance, they could even move to more habitable area and just make transport ceruleum from old place and so on. Unfortunately, this would make most sense to be side content for 6.X patches, doing this in 7.X is probably too late.

(Admittedly, it could actually make for something very interesting if the story is actually angling itself to address this later - Alphinaud in the latest patch did mention something to the effect that their efforts to help the survivors in Garlemald is currently dependent on support from the neighboring nations, implying that said charity might end up drying up later.)

Is this really interesting? This just sounds like in-game politics. All factions hate Garleans because they were evil in the past -> they don't want to help them -> we, the legendary Errand Boys of the Light, will show them that they're good now -> they help them and Full House theme plays.

[SaitoHikari]

Hmm, I dug a bit further and found an interview from a year and a half ago that seems to restore some hope. People generally think the Bozja storyline got abandoned due to internal drama with Matsuno along with running out of time, but it looks more like there's going to be an actual follow-up planned for later. Matsuno saying that the storyline got put on indefinite hold could have been a case of Endwalker accelerating the story to the point where it's better to off-screen the actual war part + NDA stuff stopping him from revealing more that also had details lost in translation.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...no_and_yoship/

On second thought, I'm not sure we're actually going across the seas anymore. The 13th shard storyline is getting the 'going to another shard' part out of the way for the time being, and there's been absolutely nothing pulling us in the direction of sailing overseas other than an assumption that we're going to just because we're at the end of the first major story arc. Given that 6.4 is going to be focused on ending the 13th shard story, and that we'll likely just have 1-2 patches remaining in the Endwalker series (we're most likely going to get a 6.6 patch comprised of more plot setup and technical things like the graphical update, because the next expansion is most likely Spring/Summer 2024 and there's no way in hell they're going to make us wait a whole ~8-9 months after the estimated release window of 6.5), it's unreasonable to expect an entire new area before the next expansion.

So we're probably going to at least start the next expansion uncovering that cloud cover in the center of our current world map.

[Renalt]

snip

This literally has nothing to do with the thread of more for your signature quote.

Yes the bard is singing cause the first "customer" is the Bard themselves. If you don't like your own singing then you would never do it for others.

[Midareyukki]

Hmm, I dug a bit further and found an interview from a year and a half ago that seems to restore some hope. People generally think the Bozja storyline got abandoned due to internal drama with Matsuno along with running out of time, but it looks more like there's going to be an actual follow-up planned for later. Matsuno saying that the storyline got put on indefinite hold could have been a case of Endwalker accelerating the story to the point where it's better to off-screen the actual war part + NDA stuff stopping him from revealing more that also had details lost in translation.

Yeah, the thing with Bozja is that right now the resolution is all in the Field Notes. And even then, the Field Notes just end with "to be continued".

When? lmao

With Matsuno gone, they either will
a) respect the writing and try to wrap up the really shoddy "tell don't show" stories they've been giving us,
b) do more of the same,
c) turn it into disneyland like they've been doing on so many other aspects (or just repeat them ignoring how Bozja's heroes all died and were turned into brainwashed monsters who force-fused with eachother at the very end despite us having a cure for Tempering*).
or d) they just won't. They just will look at that plotline and go "not our problem".

Yoshida has said that they intended for the story to wrap up in the future in Dalmasca, just not right now in 6.0. Which is fine. But that's assuming they really will pick it up, and whether they'll be able to deal witht the mess.


*possibly what's more insulting is that you specifically need to beat 6.3 and cure Ga Bu before unlocking Delubrum Reginae. The cure is even mentioned by Mikoto. And then they just... don't. And then they're turned into monsters out of nowhere. And then no one even stops to mourn or realize the Blades are all dead save for one Red Mage?? Who wrote this crap.
If we're getting more of this storyline, please start writing it properly and stop skipping details, SE, I beg of you.

[Lyth]

...

As the odd one out who really enjoyed collecting and reading through the Field Record entries, I prefer it when stories offer up references in passing that come to fruition years later. Take chocobo plume colour as an example. The various fruits that we give our chocobo companions reference areas that we hadn't seen back in ARR. You get a little entry referencing the Valfruit and the Cieldalaes Pineapple back around 2014. But we only saw the Isle of Val circa 2018 and we're only really now exploring the Cieldalaes proper. We haven't even seen Mamook yet.

There are a ton of little references that come up in item descriptions, minions, Triple Triad cards, as well as the Bozja entries that are similarly intriguing. And instant gratification aside, it's a lot more satisfying than just being given all the information up front and being dropped into the area.

What's the story with the Church of Locus and the Sect of Germonique? Is Locus a reference to Locus Amoenus, also known as Corvos? Is there a connection between Ultima's auracite, brought into the IVth Legion by Gilbrisbert, and the auracite responsible for the downfall of the Thirteenth? Do the Lucavi have a connection to the Void, and are their summoning rituals functionally analogous to Reaper arts? I don't need the answers to these things right now, nor do I expect anything to ever come of them. But it's immensely satisfying when you've had this reference planted in your head for a few expansions for it to suddenly come to fruition when you least expect it. I love a delayed payoff.

[Midareyukki]

snip.

And as someone who also loves doing that and even loved the fact that it's a replica of my favourite hobby in FF12, the Second Bestiary Entries, I can tell you that there's a difference between that and what Bozja did.

I'm spoilering this because it's LONG.

What you're describing is stuff that adds onto the lore. Snippets of lore that let you in on "further stuff", such as who the Blades are, moments of their lives, mentioning the events of Landis and its downfall. This is reminiscent of stuff like Dragon Age with the codex entries that expand on the world. Same as the FF12 Aletap Rumors and stuff like that, where they give you a lot more information that you can read and piece together to further understand the world you're in. More than just having to experience it hands-on, it gives you a feel that there's more to the world outside of it. FF Tactics technically did it first, but FF12 was the one who took it to a new level. Each monster you killed gave you the Bestiary entry for the mob alone, but kill enough of them and you unlock further pages which expand on so many things. Characters, Regions, Ages, even items! And the text on the bestiary entries was so much more than just your average Bestiary entry where it just lists the enemy, says the obvious thing about them, and then moves on.

I agree with you. One of the things that drew me into this game was how similar to FF12 it originally was. Not just in the politics-heavy plot, but also in the way those items were treated. Food has descriptions. Triple Triad cards give you insight on things like a miniature bestiary. It makes the world feel thought out. That there's more to it than just what we see. And speaking of "what we see", Sightseeing Log!! Like, come on, if you want any bundle of entries like that which describe the world around you, the Sightseeing Log explains to you all the different nooks and crannies you can explore. That's some good shit right there. And it's clear that the Field Records are trying to capture that feeling too. Especially because visually they're meant to look like FF12's Bestiary, and the whole "second page" thing is almost a shout-out to that.

I didn't finish collecting the Bozjan Field Records. I'm missing Lyon's, and I'm frankly tearing my hair out because I do not want to duel him <_>; But I have read the story online. Because I'm stupid and I became emotionally attached to Bozja. Dangerously so.

Bozja on its own is already pretty weak. Let's count the story points:
- All of the Ivalice Raids stuff that came prior to that
- Bozja Incident
- Memories
- The Blades
- The weapons that we were trying to reobtain initially, even having to dive into Cid's memory of the Bozja Incident to figure out where they were last seen
- The Chaste system and its impact even in a Garlean-ruled country
- Queen Gunnhildr and the betrayal/cover-up
- Diablo Armament
- The Beastmasters
- A cult seeking to revive Ultima

There's A LOT. And here's the thing. In ARR, you had different questlines and FATEs exploring similarly spread out story points. The Corpse Brigade doesn't really have that big a foothold in the MSQ, nor do the Lambs of Dalamud. If they show up, it's just for one minute and then off they go. But they're explored in further detail in the quests. There's nothing of the sort in Bozja. You have some FATEs that show you some stuff but then there's no further elaboration. Just "Oh, by the way, this is a thing".
The Blades die, and there's zero fanfarre. I'd expect the vaunted heroes of the resistance effort to have at least some major impact, but no, we just frown and move on.
The actual weapons are gone for the majority of the story until the end where Sicinius shows up with them and gives them to Gabranth.
Diablo Armament comes out of literally nowhere.

What I like about the Field Notes is that they do at least expand a little on the impact some stuff had. It's clear from reading them that guys like Xeven, Blaz and Isolde were important. That they were cared about. But we don't see that being reflected in the story.
What I like about the Field Notes is how they expand on different regions of Bozja. More than just the Southern Front, the beach of Gangos and the blasted heath that's Zadnor, we know of Dirbenc, the port city of Martrvje, the shrine at Zetina's Grace which taught martial arts. Zero mention past Bozja, which feels now that we'll never get to explore.
What I like about the Field Notes is how they explain the characters far more than what we see on-screen. Bajsaljen's decision to make a Garlean-style constitution makes sense when you find out about what he used to work as before the Bozja Incident. He benefitted from Garlean rule, and he found things he never would have otherwise.
What I like about the Field Notes is how they give due justice to my favourite character in the entirety of the plotline: Dabog Invisch. For those who don't read it, you find out who he is loosely in a few FATEs in Zadnor, though you encounter "him" several times in the Southern Front.

But what I dislike is the revelations in those Field Notes.
Turns out Bozja's story didn't end there. The motivations of the primary villain of the whole Ivalice-Bozja storyline is detailed in Field Notes. The fates after Dalriada of almost all the antagonists is detailed in Field Notes. And the fact the story goes on without a cutscene isn't normal for a videogame that's been reliant on those to convey really important information. Where Gabranth dies, but Sicinius does to unsuspecting Hyurs what he did to Dabog: disfigure them to look like Noah van Gabranth and upload his memories into them, with Lyon staging his death and Pagaga being out there as well. This is information that should have been made clearer: that the story will go on. This isn't them expanding on the worldbuilding and adding colour to what they couldn't show us. This is them shoving the ending of the game into a novellization. That's not what the Field Notes, Bestiary entries, Analects, Codex entries, whatever you call them... that's not what they're for!

...so really, you're talking to a kindred soul in enjoying collecting and reading lore-heavy entries like that. You're not the odd one out, Lyth. I am one too. I just feel like there's a major difference between what was achieved and what could have been done that ended up being detrimental to the content. You didn't get a delayed payoff. What you got was the conclusion of the story written down elsewhere for you. Like a DLC ending that you needed to purchase to properly finish the story. That isn't a good execution of this concept.

To me, delayed payoff is what you get when you establish things that will be expanded upon in the future. Mentioning the cult to Ultima in FATEs implies something odd is up, and that might be resolved later. The Gabranth/Lyon/Sicinius thing was not that. At all.

[SaitoHikari]

This literally has nothing to do with the thread of more for your signature quote.

Yes the bard is singing cause the first "customer" is the Bard themselves. If you don't like your own singing then you would never do it for others.

1) Follow the conversation. It does have to do with the thread because the topic has shifted towards the possibility of the Garlemald stuff being addressed later in a sort of epilogue, when most people were running under the impression that the Bozja storyline was completely abandoned. It's likely that any Garlemald epilogue will partly tie into any follow-up to the Bozja storyline as well.

2) Why the hell are you even barging into this thread talking about a signature? Is this some joke attempt at a gotcha? Are you even aware this forum has a signature function? I've had mine for like 5 years and haven't bothered to make any changes to it. It's supposed to be a play on the 'if a tree falls in the forest' saying. God damn the average quality of posters in this forum has really fallen in recent years.

[Midareyukki]

It's likely that any Garlemald epilogue will likely tie into any follow-up to the Bozja storyline as well.

I'm pretty sure this is why Yoshida even wanted to wait until after 6.0 to make any Dalmasca updates. Because they're gonna try and wrap up Garlemald itself and then tackle the rogue factions.

I just personally would rather not have the resolution to Bozja proper on the Field Notes -._.- but c'est la vie.

Question is, with Matsuno gone, which direction will they take?

Though that I think is beyond the purview of this thread. It's been long derailed by Bozja talk x_x; uhh... what was this thread about exactly? Garlemald re-writing, or in what ways will the Garlemald story continue?