The Definition of "Handsome"

[Boblawblah]

I do accept that it's your experience, but in books I've read, some kinda old in the context they were written, women were called "handsome" at times but in a quite neutral manner. Heck in the Valentione quest this time around our companion was called "handsome", like someone mentioned earlier. A woman like a Highlander would get called that.

Also I understand your take on femininity/masculinity applying only on women/men respectively, Gemina. I've seen your posts across time on that topic, and sometimes I agree. But just like men can embrace being androgynous or even feminine - like Veena M Viera for example - women can embrace their naturally brawny, tall or muscular stature too. Sometimes people just don't fit the box they "belong" to, and they can pull that off too.

It is interesting that beautiful men are now a fairly acceptable thing, and yet handsome women has the connotation of being too masculine. It's odd, why can't a woman prefer to be more 'handsome' (whatever that might be) and have that be okay? If Zero was considered handsome, would that be a bad thing?

[Gemina]

I do accept that it's your experience, but in books I've read, some kinda old in the context they were written, women were called "handsome" at times but in a quite neutral manner. Heck in the Valentione quest this time around our companion was called "handsome", like someone mentioned earlier. A woman like a Highlander would get called that.

Also I understand your take on femininity/masculinity applying only on women/men respectively, Gemina. I've seen your posts across time on that topic, and sometimes I agree. But just like men can embrace being androgynous or even feminine - like Veena M Viera for example - women can embrace their naturally brawny, tall or muscular stature too. Sometimes people just don't fit the box they "belong" to, and they can pull that off too.

Real life isn't a fictional story you read in a book or a quest in a video game. Even textbooks that depict historical context come from different times, regions, and demographics. That is why I used my own experience in this regard. Now I totally understand what you're saying when it comes to men embracing femininity, and females embracing masculinity. The issue in the current time is females rejecting their femininity, and males rejecting their masculinity. These traits are considered toxic when displayed by the sex that corresponds to them, and celebrated when the opposite sex exhibits them. All under a false pretense that this 'empowers' the person, when it does just the opposite. Civilization was not built or sustained by these principles. Our species also cannot propagate in this manner either.

You're right. Not everyone fits perfectly into a mold defined by their biological sex. Ronda Rousy is a great example of a woman exhibiting masculine traits who still embraced her femininity and allowed it to empower her. While Prince is a great example of a man who was very effeminate, yet drew upon his masculine energy to build an empire and a legacy that will exist for decades, if not longer. These two people are entertainers though. Their lives are not what the majority of us small folk go through. Reality bites, it stings, and is often unpleasant. Which is why if you're a woman and someone calls you "handsome" they are very likely making fun of you.

It is interesting that beautiful men are now a fairly acceptable thing, and yet handsome women has the connotation of being too masculine. It's odd, why can't a woman prefer to be more 'handsome' (whatever that might be) and have that be okay? If Zero was considered handsome, would that be a bad thing?

The word "beautiful" is not the same as handsome. It has many different connotations and meaning behind it. The word can be used to describe a sunset, freshly fallen snow, or the birth of a child. The word "handsome" has far more specificity tied to it.

Zero being called handsome would suggest that she looks more masculine than feminine. The antonym to the word handsome you're looking for is "pretty". When a male is referred to as pretty, it suggests that his appearance is more feminine. If Zero was a male, I think the word "pretty" would apply quite well; as does the word "handsome" for her currently. Because Zero has an androgynous look to her, it is easier for both terms to apply to her. My personal take on her is that she still leans ever so slightly towards feminine, which is why I would not refer to her as handsome.

[VeyaAkemi]

...or feminine.

From my experience, when a women is called handsome it is not used as a term of endearment. It is used offensively.

I use "handsome" in a positive tone towards women all the time, in particular, I am very fond of the "princely handsome lady" trope, y'now, masculine fashion sense, maybe a rapier... as far as popular/well known examples of the trope go, Utena is probably the archetype for it.

[ZephyrMenodora]

Well, here is the urban dictionary definition - seems flattering just not often used today:

A woman with the kind of refined beauty and attractiveness that requires poise, dignity, and strength of mind and character, things that often come with age; not merely sex-appeal. Usually applied to a woman who is also very well-groomed and from an upper class background.

This phrase is very dated and rarely used in today's English. Those who don't understand the term could almost be insulted by the word "handsome" being applied to a woman, mistakenly thinking you're saying she is masculine.
"Though she had lost long ago her virginal loveliness, she had ripened into a handsome and fruitful looking woman." - Ellen Glasgow

[Kazhar]

While this is probably true, japanese artists also codified an entire genre of hyper-masculine art. (mostly geared towards gay men) So it's not entirely black and white.

[hagare]

While this is probably true, japanese artists also codified an entire genre of hyper-masculine art. (mostly geared towards gay men) So it's not entirely black and white.

well that would explain jojo

[Midareyukki]

well that would explain jojo

Similar style, but not quite. Usually bara tends to be a lot larger. JoJo is still pretty skinny all things considered, though it is on the right track.

Think Roegadyn-type bodies. That's the sort of thing you'd see in Bara. There's usually an emphasis on making guys wide as well as muscled, so JoJo is grazing it, but not really in the same camp.

Plus, it's characterized as made by men for men with not much thought given on whether it's appealing to women or not. JoJo is a shounen so it operates by different rules. (Or rather, started out as one, then got upgraded to Seinen). One's more LGBT-oriented and specifically meant to come across as lewd. The other is just there for "the coolness" aspect.

Araki's art and storytelling isn't the same as Gai Mizuki, for example.

[hagare]

Similar style, but not quite. Usually bara tends to be a lot larger. JoJo is still pretty skinny all things considered, though it is on the right track.

Think Roegadyn-type bodies. That's the sort of thing you'd see in Bara. There's usually an emphasis on making guys wide as well as muscled, so JoJo is grazing it, but not really in the same camp.

Plus, it's characterized as made by men for men with not much thought given on whether it's appealing to women or not. JoJo is a shounen so it operates by different rules. (Or rather, started out as one, then got upgraded to Seinen). One's more LGBT-oriented and specifically meant to come across as lewd. The other is just there for "the coolness" aspect.

Araki's art and storytelling isn't the same as Gai Mizuki, for example.

oh I know bara.
But JoJo is really close with their older arcs. Though post-pucci they seem to be using a more standard body types.
Though the glam poses, the way they move, and almost everything else hadn't changed much xD

Araki started with buff lads, then starting about Part 4 he experimented with twinks.
Part 5 onwards is hard shift into The Twink Phase.

have you seen the new arc's characters? xD

[Simple_Barghest]

have you seen the new arc's characters? xD

I know it got announced but I haven't really had a chance to look into it. Got some other manga I'm keeping track of atm.

[Burmecia]

While this is probably true, japanese artists also codified an entire genre of hyper-masculine art. (mostly geared towards gay men) So it's not entirely black and white.

Yeah, true. I'm BL enjoyer and occasional bara enjoyer [-- mainly because western interwebs puts it all in the same basket like: "oh, it got males loving and sexing males? gay, it's all just gay!"].

I just guess the design choices come to and from marketability. You want to give the posterpeople of the big media thing a good looking face -- buuut not too unique. Hurts the mass market appeal.

WEST vs JP

I have no good suggestions to this problem, since I don't really feel at all that something would be horribly wrong in current state of things.
My formative years were saturated with JP media so I am not too shy to admit that I prefer the JP beauty standards more than not when it comes to video games and animations and nerdy things generally.