Inconsistencies with the sundering (Spoilers)

[SannaR]

Snips.

You're right we don't know how long it would take them to gather enough energy to send something on at least a one way trip. This of course is assuming that Hermes didn't go rogue and the knowledge of sacrificing half of the planet's population didn't actually deal with the root of the problem that caused the final days didn't create mass hysteria at the same time. What we do know is after something was cleared for release into the wild for the betterment of the star is they were hands off. That and returning to the star was according to Hythlodaeus always beautiful and something to be celebrated. And yet for whatever reason the remaining ancients post Zodiark's initial summoning felt they could not or would not be willing to wait for the ecosystem to rejuvenate itself.

So, why do you think those who couldn't wait for that to happen on its own would be willing to wait for enough aether or whatever they ended up using to send a group of people, or familiars, or creations to go fight something they don't know how to fight? Would they even choose to send our pre-sundered self? As at that point in time Azem had left the convocation and been labeled as a traitor? Or Hermes in a "Hey Jackrabbit you got us into this mess now go deal with your pet project"? Or do you not even think about taking said risk because they one or both could choose to sabotage the mission even if you saw it as a suicide mission. Not that I think Azem would be that spiteful.

The other thing is would they i.e convocation and any general public choose to want to use Zodiark to speed up the process and thusly condemning even more souls to live inside it? You know not allowing said souls to being able to return to the Star which was pre Zodiark something they cared immensely about. To the point people who even though they respected Venat after she retired from being Azem would occasionally ask her when would she you know go and kick the bucket? As it was going against custom to not do so after stepping down from such a prestigious position. Sure they might not have celebrated it like a New Orleans wake, but Hythlodaeus and Emet did make it seem as though it was to be seen as a joyous occasion. That is a lot of speculation with very little information to say which way it all would go as we only really know how Emet , Hermes, Venat, Elidibus and Lahabrea would probably react. As we barely interacted with Igeyorhm, Nabriales or Mitron. The rest of the convocation is very much a mystery as to their personalities. Even Logrith is a mystery as Gia acts differently than how she did before the sundering.

[hydralus]

The worst part about time travel stories are how forgiving it is to stupid decisions made by supposedly intelligent people. It doesn't really matter how much sense it makes to gamble everything on a slim hope when you know it worked.

Granted I still think the sundering was a necessary evil because... well if you're a race capable of splitting reality into 13 reflections I think you're officially too powerful to exist. But that was never the reasoning used. Don't know why. The actual excuse given makes Venat on about the same level as Mother Teresa.

[PeaTearGriffin]

So, why do you think those who couldn't wait for that to happen on its own would be willing to wait for enough aether or whatever they ended up using to send a group of people, or familiars, or creations to go fight something they don't know how to fight?

Because some ancients might see or can be convinced that its better to solve the root of the problem instead of just applying a band-aid solution like zodiark. Venat certainly saw that it was necessary to fight the root of the problem which is partly the reason why she sundered everyone. Also there's the possibility that gathering the aether might not take that long.

I'll dive a little bit into what I think could've happened. This is just a fan theory so don't take this too seriously. Venat could put a plan into action that involves informing the other ancients of what she learned from her encounter with meteion and hermes WITHOUT implicating hermes. She could say: "Look, your memory is gone but mine isn't. Your creation went crazy and escaped and is coming back to kill us all and we need to do something." All the while she could tiptoe around the fact that hermes attacked her, emet, hythlodaeus, and the WoL at Ktisis Hyperboreia. Why avoid revealing this to hermes? Because they need hermes' cooperation because he knows the most about meteion. Would the revelation that all the ancients might die to hermes' creation cause panic and mass hysteria? It might and it probably will. But that doesn't mean the ancients will refuse or are incapable of a devising a plan to fight meteion. Once the hysteria subsides they can begin working on a plan to travel to the edge of the universe and kill meteion.

In the event that it does take lots of time to prepare for an assault on meteion I'd imagine there would be a lot more resistance to carrying out such a plan, so venat would have to sway public opinion. She would have to convince everyone into taking a course of action that resolves the problem at the source (killing meteion) instead of just a band-aid solution that is zodiark's aether shield. Will it be hard to convince all the ancients that this is a plan worth putting into action? Yes. Will it be impossible? No.

Or Hermes in a "Hey Jackrabbit you got us into this mess now go deal with your pet project"? Or do you not even think about taking said risk because they one or both could choose to sabotage the mission even if you saw it as a suicide mission.

If hermes were to join the expedition to the edge of the universe only to betray the entire crew, that would in my opinion make for a very entertaining cutscene. It would almost be like Cypher from the Matrix where he betrays morpheus and everyone on the ship.

The other thing is would they i.e convocation and any general public choose to want to use Zodiark to speed up the process and thusly condemning even more souls to live inside it?

If it's to eliminate something that's a threat to their entire civilization, yes possibly. Desperate times call for desperate measures. If someone had a chance to sacrifice themselves to zodiark in order to save everyone on the star, I'd say that's something that the ancients might find worth celebrating too.

[PeaTearGriffin]

Granted I still think the sundering was a necessary evil because... well if you're a race capable of splitting reality into 13 reflections I think you're officially too powerful to exist. But that was never the reasoning used. Don't know why. The actual excuse given makes Venat on about the same level as Mother Teresa.

That could be another way for venat to justify the sundering of etheirys, although in my opinion it would once again make for a very one-sided decision which doesn't consider anybody else's views other than venat's. It gives it a somewhat religious undertone to it, like the whole "one should not have too much power, wealth, etc." concept from the bible.

[TaleraRistain]

It's been a bit since I saw the cutscenes but IIRC it was less the Ancients couldn't interact with dynamis at all or manipulate it but that it made their creation magics go out of whack and become uncontrollable. Their society relied heavily on these creation magics so any response to Meteion would involve utilizing them. I'm not sure how they could have mounted a proper offense with the tools they had available assuming they could reach her. We as the WoL don't have pesky creation magics to fall out of our control.

[PeaTearGriffin]

It's been a bit since I saw the cutscenes but IIRC it was less the Ancients couldn't interact with dynamis at all or manipulate it but that it made their creation magics go out of whack and become uncontrollable. Their society relied heavily on these creation magics so any response to Meteion would involve utilizing them. I'm not sure how they could have mounted a proper offense with the tools they had available assuming they could reach her. We as the WoL don't have pesky creation magics to fall out of our control.

That's entirely true, but summoning zodiark helped the ancients regain control of their creation magic again. The ancients were an especially advanced civilization very dedicated to science and technology. I really don't think that they would be incapable of creating something that could travel the stars. Even one scientist alone (hermes) was able to create a being all by himself that could reach the end of the universe (meteion).

It's also true that sundered people can't lose control of their creation magic, but they can turn into blasphemies themselves which I don't think is that much better.

[Raven2014]

To quote a few real life pilots about Top Gun 2's plot, here is the realistic rewritten of the story:

- Maverick died 5min into the movie at march 10. *('cause only in Holywood someone would survive that).
- Scene skip to the destroyer launch a bunch of cruise missile and destroy the target without the need of any planes. 'Cause that exactly how the Pentagon would handle that mission in real life.
- The end.

But then, that kind of realism doesn't make a movie.


About the sunder scene: it's called stage play, and the one saw is a well executed one. You definitely won't pull off something like that without some professional training. Does that mean everyone like it? Of course not. But at the same time I don't think "realism" is a valid criticism either. You can compare two plays and debate which one is better. But for example, saying a play is better made into a movie isn't a valid comparison. After all, a Shakespeare play doesn't share the same goal as a Hollywood action flick.



And the last part about why the Ancient doesn't fight. They always say you need both a will and a mean. At the on set, the Ancient lacked both. I don't think reaching Endsinger is an issue, but even if they face her ... then what? While it's true the sundering thin out the aether, I would think the main, or at least the other half of the reason was to train the mentality that can accept suffering. The former is the "mean", the latter is the "will". It is within reason to say they can get around the "mean" part given how advance and powerful the ancient were, but they would never achieve the "will" due to the nature of their society. It's a battle they certainly could have fought, and one that they would definitely lose.

[PeaTearGriffin]

To quote a few real life pilots about Top Gun 2's plot, here is the realistic rewritten of the story:

- Maverick died 5min into the movie at march 10. *('cause only in Holywood someone would survive that).
- Scene skip to the destroyer launch a bunch of cruise missile and destroy the target without the need of any planes. 'Cause that exactly how the Pentagon would handle that mission in real life.
- The end.

But then, that kind of realism doesn't make a movie.

Here's top gun 2's plot written in the same style as endwalker:

Tom cruise blows up all the fighter jets because he believes that the F-18s make the mission too easy to accomplish. He thinks everyone should fight a ground war to make people understand true pain and suffering and what it really means to be a soldier in a war. The movie is emotional, fantastic, and full of exciting fight sequences but leaves the audience thinking: "why on earth did he choose this method of fighting the enemy?"

About the sunder scene: it's called stage play, and the one saw is a well executed one. You definitely won't pull off something like that without some professional training. Does that mean everyone like it? Of course not. But at the same time I don't think "realism" is a valid criticism either. You can compare two plays and debate which one is better. But for example, saying a play is better made into a movie isn't a valid comparison. After all, a Shakespeare play doesn't share the same goal as a Hollywood action flick.

I don't think anybody here is asking for total realism. What some people are asking is for square enix to not retcon the story from shadowbringers. Some people may see the sundering cutscene as metaphorical/symbolic but other people see it as a continuity error. You can make a cutscene symbolic or metaphorical and not have it change the story.

And the last part about why the Ancient doesn't fight. They always say you need both a will and a mean. At the on set, the Ancient lacked both. I don't think reaching Endsinger is an issue, but even if they face her ... then what? While it's true the sundering thin out the aether, I would think the main, or at least the other half of the reason was to train the mentality that can accept suffering. The former is the "mean", the latter is the "will". It is within reason to say they can get around the "mean" part given how advance and powerful the ancient were, but they would never achieve the "will" due to the nature of their society. It's a battle they certainly could have fought, and one that they would definitely lose.

I know, all I'm saying is imagine an alternate ending where the ancients do have the will to fight. I don't think it's beyond reason for the ancients to muster the will to destroy meteion to secure the safety of their people.

[Raven2014]

I don't think anybody here is asking for total realism. What some people are asking is for square enix to not retcon the story from shadowbringers. Some people may see the sundering cutscene as metaphorical/symbolic but other people see it as a continuity error. You can make a cutscene symbolic or metaphorical and not have it change the story.

I know, all I'm saying is imagine an alternate ending where the ancients do have the will to fight. I don't think it's beyond reason for the ancients to muster the will to destroy meteion to secure the safety of their people.

I don't see it retconning anything, it just focus on answering a different answer. You want to see a cinematic implementation of the conflict mentioned in ShB, but this scene isn't about that. The scene is not about the civil wars or conflict between the 2 ancient factions, but about the reason for it. The short dialogue is meant to show why Venat decided she had no choice but sundering the ancient, not to show your the epic power struggle between her and Zoc (which is what the ShB portion was about).

In fact, that's pretty much the answer to your 2nd quote as well. The will to fight is not what is needed. You're pitching a civilization who had know nothing but a blissful paradise existence against an entity that had seen despair on countless world, they can not win. The Ancient can't fight because they didn't know who their enemy was, and Venat didn't disclose it because precisely what happened in that CS. It showed that she did not make an arbitrary decision, and tried to convince them to change. But once she saw the Ancient would rather die to get back their old paradise instead of accepting the reality, she know her people had no hope in winning that battle. Had she let them know about Metion, it could very well be the Ancient gonna march right to their demise in their omnipoten ignorance/arrogant.

It's also why the most meaningful interaction (for me) when the Scion met Hydaelyn was Alise's answer to her question "are you ready?". In which Alise reply was "sure, no problem, we beat her up and win for sure ... is what the old me would say. But do we actually have a chance?". The maturity in Alise's answer (who used to be the most cocky of the Scion) symbolize the growth Hyadaelyn was seeking in humanity. The agony and acceptance of your own powerlessness, the pain of fear and uncertainty, yet despite that still find the courage to forge ahead is what separate the current humanity and the Ancient.

[PeaTearGriffin]

I don't see it retconning anything, it just focus on answering a different answer. You want to see a cinematic implementation of the conflict mentioned in ShB, but this scene isn't about that. The scene is not about the civil wars or conflict between the 2 ancient factions, but about the reason for it. The short dialogue is meant to show why Venat decided she had no choice but sundering the ancient, not to show your the epic power struggle between her and Zoc (which is what the ShB portion was about).

Of course there are people that don't see it as a retcon because there's the excuse that the cutscene was metaphorical and symbolic. I and plenty of other people don't buy though. It seems like the developers created a continuity error and use this excuse to sweep it under the rug.

In fact, that's pretty much the answer to your 2nd quote as well. The will to fight is not what is needed. You're pitching a civilization who had know nothing but a blissful paradise existence against an entity that had seen despair on countless world, they can not win.

This I don't agree with because the ancients had a lot of things going for them. They were a technologically advanced civilization very dedicated to science, and we also know that aether nullifies dynamis because Hermes says to the Wol, Venat, Emet, and Hythlodaeus in one of the cutscenes on Elpis: "As you know, Aether, in essence, negates dynamis." So to say that the ancients cannot win under any circumstance and that the sundering was the only choice seems like a cop out to me.

It's also why the most meaningful interaction (for me) when the Scion met Hydaelyn was Alise's answer to her question "are you ready?". In which Alise reply was "sure, no problem, we beat her up and win for sure ... is what the old me would say. But do we actually have a chance?". The maturity in Alise's answer (who used to be the most cocky of the Scion) symbolize the growth Hyadaelyn was seeking in humanity. The agony and acceptance of your own powerlessness, the pain of fear and uncertainty, yet despite that still find the courage to forge ahead is what separate the current humanity and the Ancient.

I understand that some people like the narrative that the game pushes: that humanity is courageous and resilient and can overcome any obstacle with determination and willpower. But to me, that message lost its impact once I realized that humanity was created at the expense of the ancients and that the decision to do so was made without consulting anybody else. It was a very selfish decision to make. This is honestly why I like shadowbringer's version of the story better where the sundering happened because of a huge battle between zodiark and hydaelyn.