Inconsistencies with the sundering (Spoilers)

[Wanzzo]

I suppose that could be the case, but then the idea that Zodiark has the potential to be that powerful introduces an additional inconsistency. With that kind of difference in power where just 1/14th of Zodiark's aether is enough to stop meteion, the ancients (barring venat's personal moral opinion that people should suffer) could just summon zodiark, have him kill meteion because he's so much more powerful than meteion in this scenario, and then work on restoring etheirys. We already know from the game's cutscenes that "Dynamis is a far weaker form of energy, and is almost completely nullified by Aether in equal quantities." If just 1/14th of Zodiark's aether is enough to nullify meteion, we can assume that zodiark can kill meteion with an additional fraction of his aether, then use his remaining aether to restore the world. Of course these are just fan theories at this point, but the hypothetical scenario that Zodiark is indeed that aetherically powerful creates more possibilities that might be better alternatives to sundering the world.

maybe...because Venat met us at Elpis and we told her what happened with our world, all the shards, where we are from, about Hydaelyn, etc. So, Venat could have just make things in order to keep our existence in her future possible (by sundering Zodiark and becoming Hydaelyn) since we and she was the only ones to know exactly about Meteion and the Final Days's source. If she changes history, our existence or knowledge could be neutralized or worthless.

About Zodiark "restoring the world" I understood that it was impossible. Zodiark is a Primal and the top most aether consuming at that. In order to keep him you have basicaly to destroy the life in the world. All creations must have to be given to him as "sacrifices" from time to time to keep him existing, as we learn in ShB. So, the very existence of Zodiark in it's full form is a threat to the planet itself. The sundering could make him weaker in a way that he could not be summoned anymore (prision at the Moon) and sacrifices made to him not more possible (that's why the unsundered tried to Rejoin all reflexes through Calamities in order to give Zodiark power enough to free himself).

I think these 2 points (our very existence that Venat met at Elpis and the necessity to weaken Zodiark's power before he consumes all the world to keep existing), are reason enough to justify the sundering instead of doing something else ( but I agree about trying to use Zodiark to kill Meteion before the sundering).

[Absimiliard]

About Zodiark "restoring the world" I understood that it was impossible. Zodiark is a Primal and the top most aether consuming at that. In order to keep him you have basicaly to destroy the life in the world. All creations must have to be given to him as "sacrifices" from time to time to keep him existing, as we learn in ShB. So, the very existence of Zodiark in it's full form is a threat to the planet itself. The sundering could make him weaker in a way that he could not be summoned anymore (prision at the Moon) and sacrifices made to him not more possible (that's why the unsundered tried to Rejoin all reflexes through Calamities in order to give Zodiark power enough to free himself).

This is actually incorrect. We were told explicitly that Zodiark indeed could (and did) restore the world. The first summoning fully healed the world, the second populated it with new life in the same vein as what the ancients put forth prior with their own creation magics. The third sacrifice would have used a portion of that created life (or rather its descendants, born through natural reproduction after the initial models were created by Zodiark) to resurrect everyone whose life was given to summon Zodiark in the first place. Furthermore, neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn consume aether just by existing; that's a flaw introduced in modern primals. Neither would they require continuous sacrifices to go on existing, and they did not drain aether form the surrounding environment whatsoever. Thus, neither of them posed any kind of actual threat to the planet merely by existing.

Simply put, the sacrifices were there primarily to fuel Zodiark's powers on a large scale without necessitating that he consume the ancient souls within. Zodiark's directives are to heal and protect the world, and keep those souls safe for the time when they may be returned to life. Tasks such as healing the entire world, inside and out, after the effects of the Final Days are monumental indeed, as would be seeding an entire planet with enough new life to provide the necessary genetic diversity for it to become self-sustaining. When doing anything else, like say shielding Etheirys, he required only so much aether as could be safely provided by the souls within.

The sundering did not weaken Zodiark in such a way he couldn't be "summoned" anymore, it took the entity itself, which still physically existed (i.e. it was still "summoned"), and split it across the shards so that its shield could continue to protect Etheirys in the long term.

[Wanzzo]

This is actually incorrect. We were told explicitly that Zodiark indeed could (and did) restore the world. The first summoning fully healed the world, the second populated it with new life in the same vein as what the ancients put forth prior with their own creation magics. The third sacrifice would have used a portion of that created life to resurrect everyone whose life was given to summon Zodiark in the first place. Furthermore, neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn consume aether just by existing; that's a flaw introduced in modern primals. Neither would they require continuous sacrifices to go on existing, and they did not drain aether form the surrounding environment whatsoever. Thus, neither of them posed any kind of actual threat to the planet merely by existing.

The sundering did not weaken Zodiark in such a way he couldn't be "summoned" anymore, it took the entity itself, which still physically existed (i.e. it was still "summoned"), and split it across the shards so that its shield could continue to product Etheirys in the long term.

ohh thank you!

I have to revise the cutscenes. Probably i misunderstood that part with Y'shtola after we reach that Library created by Emet at the ocean.

Anyway, really thanks for clarifying that to me
+1 Kupo.

[Absimiliard]

ohh thank you!

I have to revise the cutscenes. Probably i misunderstood that part with Y'shtola after we reach that Library created by Emet at the ocean.

Anyway, really thanks for clarifying that to me
+1 Kupo.

Always happy to toss out info. Quite a few things changed between ShB and EW as more of the information surrounding Zodiark and Hydaelyn came to light. Many of the Scions' (and players, for that matter) prior suppositions turned out to be incorrect. It's easy for the waters to get a bit muddied when theories later turn out to be so off base from the facts.

[TaleraRistain]

Do you really not know the answer to that question? The community accuse the Ancients of being many things, but I doubt most of them would believe they'd be that stupid.
After the trauma and destruction it caused, it would be silly to not do anything to counter the Apocalypse at their doorstep.

Complacency. Their society had a problem with it.

You can see it in the two NPCs in Amaurot that talk about troubles going on elsewhere and if they should help or not. And in the Azem story where we, someone considered a troublemaking rebel, goes out to save people in a village that's going to be destroyed. I believe it was Emet who had the reasoning "They would have left already if they didn't want to die" (paraphrasing). We've seen indications their people live for at least hundreds of years. Why hadn't they already explored the universe? Why weren't they out there trying to help other planets, too? Their society was conditioned to only be concerned with Etheirys. It didn't encourage individuality or free thinking. The Watcher is scandalized in his story that Venat shows her face. We can see from the Panda raids that you can research topics but only the things that the society deems acceptable. When some creation comes out unexpectedly, it's outside of spec and is usually destroyed. Or they toss the misfits into a place like Panda so they can poke and prod at them to their heart's content.

They're safe now. Things are going back right back to how they should be. Why would anyone rock the boat for a universe they haven't bothered to care for up to this point?

[Absimiliard]

Complacency. Their society had a problem with it.

You can see it in the two NPCs in Amaurot that talk about troubles going on elsewhere and if they should help or not. And in the Azem story where we, someone considered a troublemaking rebel, goes out to save people in a village that's going to be destroyed. I believe it was Emet who had the reasoning "They would have left already if they didn't want to die" (paraphrasing). We've seen indications their people live for at least hundreds of years. Why hadn't they already explored the universe? Why weren't they out there trying to help other planets, too? Their society was conditioned to only be concerned with Etheirys. It didn't encourage individuality or free thinking. The Watcher is scandalized in his story that Venat shows her face. We can see from the Panda raids that you can research topics but only the things that the society deems acceptable. When some creation comes out unexpectedly, it's outside of spec and is usually destroyed. Or they toss the misfits into a place like Panda so they can poke and prod at them to their heart's content.

They're safe now. Things are going back right back to how they should be. Why would anyone rock the boat for a universe they haven't bothered to care for up to this point?

I would tend to argue this take doesn't completely work after what we saw in Elpis. We're shown pretty conclusively the ancients were no different from us. Their society certainly had its problems, but complacency to the point of allowing their own end wouldn't seem to be one of those. They were just people living their lives, no different from those who would come after in that regard. Up until the business with Meteion they had no way of even knowing the universe held other life, let alone its current state. In the end, they never found out - Hermes lost his memories, and Venat never spoke a word of it. We've no way of knowing if they would have cared or not. Even if they didn't, it would be pretty realistic - real humans wouldn't care about other worlds either. Most of us don't even care about our own neighbors, let alone other countries or planets.

At any rate, I think we can safely assume they at least wouldn't have just sat around with their thumbs up their behind if they'd been aware of Meteion. If not for the danger she posed to the rest of the universe, then for the danger she still posed to Etheirys in spite of Zodiark's shield. The eldest primal could've protected the planet for an incomprehensible length of time, but that period was none the less not without limit. Beyond that, what of the universe itself? Should the universe die, would not that kill Etheirys regardless of whether or not Zodiark's power had reached its limit? Self-preservation is a powerful motivator. It can make you lash out in desperation, yes, but it can also give you the drive to innovate in truly fantastic ways. It all depends on your skillset and the circumstances surrounding your sense of need.

One thing we do know is they were working on space travel around the time everything went downhill. We see it in one of the Anyders, although it wasn't completed by the time their civilization came to an end. It looked like they were getting pretty close to having that finalized, too.

[VigilanteXII]

At any rate, I think we can safely assume they at least wouldn't have just sat around with their thumbs up their behind if they'd been aware of Meteion.

Even if they would have found a way to get rid of Meteion, I don't think it would have mattered, because neither she nor Dynamis were ever the real threat. Keep in mind that civilizations all over the universe were already flying head first against the great filter before she was ever a thing.

So what was that ultimate threat? It's Hermes's question. What's the point of it all? Once a civilization gets far enough as to achieve everything there is to achieve they will inevitable end up with that question, and the answer is always going to be: There isn't one. It's all ultimately pointless. That's why the Ea and Omicrons decided there's nothing left to do but to kill themselves. That's like, literally the entire point of that whole zone, and they hammer it home pretty hard.

And the ancients were fast approaching that self same end. Theirs was the perfect paradise, they had no problems left to overcome. All they did everyday all day long were creating more and more concepts, but.. why? What's the point? Hermes may have been the first to ponder the question, but he would not have been the last. And they would have failed to come up with an answer just like the Ea did. Their only life line was that they kept themselves busy enough with their pointless creations that they didn't have to face that question, but how long could they have kept doing this until they ran out of every conceivable creation? What then?

Meteion simply forced the issue by giving them a taste of that despair, and they failed spectacularly. She didn't destroy the world, that was entirely their doing. So what was their solution? To retreat back into their little bubble of bliss. They were never ever going to be able to deal with this issue, because they never even wanted to. They just wanted to continue to delay the inevitable.

And that's why Venat sundered them. To take away that option. To force them to deal with it. She did so because she had faith that humanity, if given time and being subjected to manageable doses of despair, would eventually find an answer to that ultimate question. To find a reason to keep on living. Overcoming Meteion was merely the means of putting that to the test.

And she was proven right, since that is how we actually managed to "defeat" Meteion. It wasn't the battle that did her in, I'm sure she would have had a few more rounds in her, given that she had the despair of an entire universe at her disposal. It's because we showed her that even when faced with the knowledge that all we do is ultimately pointless, and that there is no reason to our suffering, and that death was always assured, we were still able to find a reason to keep on living. Something the Ancients were not, and would never have been able to do.

[PeaTearGriffin]

And the ancients were fast approaching that self same end. Theirs was the perfect paradise, they had no problems left to overcome. All they did everyday all day long were creating more and more concepts, but.. why? What's the point? Hermes may have been the first to ponder the question, but he would not have been the last. And they would have failed to come up with an answer just like the Ea did. Their only life line was that they kept themselves busy enough with their pointless creations that they didn't have to face that question, but how long could they have kept doing this until they ran out of every conceivable creation? What then?

They could return to the aetherial sea like the game suggests several times. The story establishes that there is a life and death cycle for the ancients. Ancients that wanted to stay alive and keep making creations were allowed to and those wanted to return to the aetherial sea could do so as well. Also, is there a limited number of conceivable creations? Are creations finite especially when an ancient can create pretty much anything? I don't believe the game establishes there is a limit to the number of different creations.

Meteion simply forced the issue by giving them a taste of that despair, and they failed spectacularly. She didn't destroy the world, that was entirely their doing. So what was their solution? To retreat back into their little bubble of bliss. They were never ever going to be able to deal with this issue, because they never even wanted to. They just wanted to continue to delay the inevitable.

They failed spectacularly? They summoned zodiark and put an end to the final days. She didn't destroy the world because the ancients successfully defended themselves against her. It's pretty obvious that they in fact were able to deal with the issue and they wanted to.

And that's why Venat sundered them. To take away that option. To force them to deal with it. She did so because she had faith that humanity, if given time and being subjected to manageable doses of despair, would eventually find an answer to that ultimate question. To find a reason to keep on living. Overcoming Meteion was merely the means of putting that to the test.

This is such a strange take that I'll never see eye to eye with this. She had no faith in her own people who were able to stop the final days through summoning zodiark, but she had the utmost faith in humanity from the future who had no solution to their own final days and were transforming into blasphemies and had no choice but to time travel to the past to look for answers from HER OWN people?

[Xirean]

Even if they would have found a way to get rid of Meteion, I don't think it would have mattered, because neither she nor Dynamis were ever the real threat. Keep in mind that civilizations all over the universe were already flying head first against the great filter before she was ever a thing.

So what was that ultimate threat? It's Hermes's question. What's the point of it all? Once a civilization gets far enough as to achieve everything there is to achieve they will inevitable end up with that question, and the answer is always going to be: There isn't one. It's all ultimately pointless. That's why the Ea and Omicrons decided there's nothing left to do but to kill themselves. That's like, literally the entire point of that whole zone, and they hammer it home pretty hard.

And the ancients were fast approaching that self same end. Theirs was the perfect paradise, they had no problems left to overcome. All they did everyday all day long were creating more and more concepts, but.. why? What's the point? Hermes may have been the first to ponder the question, but he would not have been the last. And they would have failed to come up with an answer just like the Ea did. Their only life line was that they kept themselves busy enough with their pointless creations that they didn't have to face that question, but how long could they have kept doing this until they ran out of every conceivable creation? What then?

Meteion simply forced the issue by giving them a taste of that despair, and they failed spectacularly. She didn't destroy the world, that was entirely their doing. So what was their solution? To retreat back into their little bubble of bliss. They were never ever going to be able to deal with this issue, because they never even wanted to. They just wanted to continue to delay the inevitable.

And that's why Venat sundered them. To take away that option. To force them to deal with it. She did so because she had faith that humanity, if given time and being subjected to manageable doses of despair, would eventually find an answer to that ultimate question. To find a reason to keep on living. Overcoming Meteion was merely the means of putting that to the test.

And she was proven right, since that is how we actually managed to "defeat" Meteion. It wasn't the battle that did her in, I'm sure she would have had a few more rounds in her, given that she had the despair of an entire universe at her disposal. It's because we showed her that even when faced with the knowledge that all we do is ultimately pointless, and that there is no reason to our suffering, and that death was always assured, we were still able to find a reason to keep on living. Something the Ancients were not, and would never have been able to do.

That's a lot of hoops to jump through to justify genocide.

[ReynTime]

Venat just wanted to see hope and despair clash so hope could shine brighter. All the dead ancients, and millions killed by calamities? They were just stepping stones for hope!