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  1. #181
    Player
    hydralus's Avatar
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    Jun 2016
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    1,126
    Character
    Keiho Fukiku
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Zsolen View Post
    Vary your sources, and you will understand quite a bit more about things, not that I think oil companies are wonderful.



    It was his decision. He is a chief. He was a victim himself. Your hatred would be a bit more understandable, if Pope Francis himself was involved. Do you even know what Pope Francis did that would earn respect?
    Blindly following leaders is not a great point to take. A victim doing something wrong is still doing something wrong. If Pope Francis was just a person who helped Native people then that would be completely fine I'd have no issue. But he's not, is he? He's the HEAD of an organization. One that still has people who are alive that were complacent in taking children from the families. Try to consider the symbolism that carries. It would have cost them NOTHING to simply accept the apology and not done the thing that upset a lot of people.

    Even the people who presented the headdress never want to actually face the criticism regarding it. "Believe what you want, you're entitled to your beliefs". Like they didn't even think about what they did, they just did it and can't understand why their own people are upset. It's absolutely bonkers.

    But yeah as for how this relates to the attire in-game. Call me disillusioned. I don't care if the devs used ceremonial Native garb. It's obviously nothing special.
    (0)
    Last edited by hydralus; 02-19-2023 at 02:08 PM.

  2. #182
    Player
    Zsolen's Avatar
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    Sep 2015
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    Tailfeather
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    818
    Character
    Zanelle Solainteau
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by hydralus View Post
    Blindly following leaders is not a great point to take. A victim doing something wrong is still doing something wrong. If Pope Francis was just a person who helped Native people then that would be completely fine I'd have no issue. But he's not, is he? He's the HEAD of an organization. One that still has people who are alive that were complacent in taking children from the families. Try to consider the symbolism that carries. It would have cost them NOTHING to simply accept the apology and not done the thing that upset a lot of people.

    Even the people who presented the headdress never want to actually face the criticism regarding it. "Believe what you want, you're entitled to your beliefs". Like they didn't even think about what they did, they just did it and can't understand why their own people are upset. It's absolutely bonkers.
    You are saying he is doing something wrong does not make him wrong. You are entitled to believe whatever you want, but you are not the authority on that. You just believe you are, which is no different from your oil stance. You believe you are the authority on that as well.

    The headdress has a large symbolic meaning. That does not change, because you don't like a certain chief or the actions of said chief.
    (1)

  3. #183
    Player
    Jukebox12's Avatar
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    Jan 2016
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    376
    Character
    Juke Fm
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 73
    I think we should close this thread square isn't going to do anything about this glamour. I think it stupid that the council is making a uproar cause they didn't get money from this.
    (11)

  4. #184
    Player
    hydralus's Avatar
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    Jun 2016
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    1,126
    Character
    Keiho Fukiku
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Zsolen View Post
    You are saying he is doing something wrong does not make him wrong. You are entitled to believe whatever you want, but you are not the authority on that. You just believe you are, which is no different from your oil stance. You believe you are the authority on that as well.

    The headdress has a large symbolic meaning. That does not change, because you don't like a certain chief or the actions of said chief.
    I said WHY it is wrong if you bother to try and understand. I've said it three times now. If you're not going to argue a point then let's just stop conversing because I am getting no new enlightening information from you and you seem content with adopting their stance of 'believe what you want'.
    (0)

  5. #185
    Player
    Melorie's Avatar
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    Mar 2016
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    682
    Character
    Melorie Valliere
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 81
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyhawk View Post
    EXACTLY THE POINT HERE! And I bet you didn't even realize it. This is exactly what is going on with a video game attire! OMG, and you are advocating against it, L.O.L.
    You clearly don't get my point. The Sami people are the ones making this alive, not you wearing an outfit. THEY are the ones that hold the knowledge, nurture it, pass it on for generations, make the decisions that change that particular culture. THEY should be involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyhawk View Post
    I know this isn't about me, and it's not even about you contrary to your private legendary opinion. I wasn't even comparing myself to this - I was pointing out a simple fact of how overboard, woke shit, overly sensitive people are being about video game attire - and no one here is affected - at all - about it. Sami Council isn't offended - they are mad because they aren't making anything from it, and that is the core issue. It's not offensive, they just don't have their name on the shirt tag.

    Hypocrites.
    Who said I have zero opinions on the New World, or even Thavnair and many other instances? I could spend all day here talking, but we're talking about the Sami subject. So because I didn't made a topic regarding the New World attire or whatever, I can't talk about the whole-instance regarding traditional attire? You literally can't know what is my opinion regarding everything that there's in the game, I'm not sure why you're assuming you do. Besides, every post I'm advocating that there should be new, better ways for the entertainment industry handling the act of getting inspiration from cultures around the world.

    Again, it's also not a matter of being offended? After having your knowledge being used as a way for making profit for a giant company, why is it soo surprising they see the opportunity for financial compensation? It doesn't seem like a big deal to me. If anything I say the people treating this as something absurd are the sensitive ones.

    Ding ding. Throwing around the whole "woke" thingy. That's all I need to know. You people are always the same, of course. Keep acting like a video game is a fairy-bubblesque world that isn't related to real world discussions, politics and blablabla. While you consume media that only exists because there's politics, there's discussion, there's culture in the real world.
    (1)
    Last edited by Melorie; 02-19-2023 at 02:28 PM.

  6. #186
    Player
    Zsolen's Avatar
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    Zanelle Solainteau
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by hydralus View Post
    I said WHY it is wrong if you bother to try and understand. I've said it three times now. If you're not going to argue a point then let's just stop conversing because I am getting no new enlightening information from you and you seem content with adopting their stance of 'believe what you want'.
    It isn't wrong, from the perspectives of others, including the chief you hate.

    You just believe only you have the answer. If it were up to you, there would never be a moving forward with anything. You will always look for something you don't like to justify your hatred both towards individuals and an entire religion of over 1 billion people.
    (0)

  7. #187
    Player Midareyukki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Bozja
    Posts
    2,580
    Character
    Harun Asubra
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Melorie View Post
    You clearly don't get my point. The Sami people are the ones making this alive, not you wearing an outfit. THEY are the ones that hold the knowledge, nurture it, pass it on for generations, make the decisions that change that particular culture. THEY should be involved.
    Well, what do you think of the people identifying themselves as Sami people or with Sami descent saying they are fine with this sort of thing and denouncing the council?

    Also...
    Who said I have zero opinions on the New World, or even Thavnair and many other instances? I could spend all day here talking, but we're talking about the Sami subject. So because I didn't made a topic regarding the New World attire or whatever, I can't talk about the whole-instance regarding traditional attire? You literally can't know what is my opinion regarding everything that there's in the game, I'm not sure why you're assuming you do. Besides, every post I'm advocating that there should be new, better ways for the entertainment industry handling the act of getting inspiration from cultures around the world.
    You can still talk about it, since the thread overall is talking about cultural appropriation and why the Sami Council issued a statement and whether other such councils can and have not.
    No one said that you can't talk about this one thing because you didn't have a thread on another. And I fail to see where you got that reading. You aren't being accused of that :T

    Because it is true New World, Thavnair and many other locations (Bozja, Sharlayan, Yanxia, Azim Steppe, the Ananta tribe...) have real world influences from specific cultures, some of which are ethnic minorities. Square Enix didn't get such feedback from them, or any such institution representing them. Yet Square too didn't have anyone of those cultures involved in the creative process. If we're talking about the Sami people, it's only fair we then extrapolate to every other instance of such. Minority or not. It's still a different culture outside that of American and Japanese. So the question does remain: is it a bad thing that Square Enix included those areas with such cultural overtones?

    In the end, I think you're right, to an extent. Cultural Appreciation does exist, and so too does Cultural Appropriation. However, those terms are thrown around without their intended meaning. You CAN appreciate a culture without resorting to take it and do whatever you want with it, and when there's respect for the culture, it isn't inherently appropriation unless you seek to deface it, monetize it and/or strip it from its cultural context. And unfortunately, those situations aren't straightforward in some cases. And you can't always work with that culture directly... but you can still represent them with respect and with an informed mindset. With that in mind, I have another question:

    As I just mentioned, a cultural item is appropriated when you strip it from its context and monetize it. I feel like the biggest hurdle of this situation is the fact that this outfit is on the Mogstation; it likely wouldn't stir up anything if it were in the game as a crafted item. However. The Sami council is claiming this to be similar to the Gakti... yet it's already been demonstrated by people in this thread that the Far Northern Attire is equally similar to other North Eurasian cultures' outfits. Like a mismash of different elements, with the end result being naturally similar to the Gakti. The latest I can remember was Burmecia when replying to Iscah on page 15. So... is this the Gakti or isn't it? And if it's not, then can we still consider them to be appropriating the Sami directly?
    (2)

  8. #188
    Player
    Nitelancer's Avatar
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    Jan 2014
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    147
    Character
    Ponder Nite
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 100
    Many pages ago in this thread someone from the saami people posted that the council doesn’t represent all their people and that they are just doing this for money. This person though the outfit was cool and was happy they added it to the game.

    You are making assumptions about a large group of people. But how many of them actually care? How many of them would even want to be involved?

    You don’t know. Also, you don’t know that this was a corporate decision specifically to exploit anyone. Did the CEO or square give the order? No. He likely doesn’t even know or care about this outfit. More likely, an artist came up with the concept and the director approved it.

    “Better” ways of representation is not worth anyone’s time or energy. It would not be to the benefit of anyone expect some “official council” who are the real exploiters.
    (2)

  9. #189
    Player Midareyukki's Avatar
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    Oct 2017
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    Bozja
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    2,580
    Character
    Harun Asubra
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitelancer View Post
    Many pages ago in this thread someone from the saami people posted that the council doesn’t represent all their people and that they are just doing this for money. This person though the outfit was cool and was happy they added it to the game.
    This post, yeah? They weren't the only ones either o: There are people identifying themselves as belonging to Sami culture on Twitter saying a similar sentiment.

    We obviously don't know how many actually care. Nor whether the people who are speaking up are a loud minority that happens to disagree with the Council. But these are the voices we're mostly hearing from (I haven't heard any so far that have agreed with the Sami Council, but I also won't discredit the possibility of one existing). And so far the message is that the Sami people as individuals are okay with Square Enix. It's the Council that's got a problem.
    (1)

  10. #190
    Player
    xxmiamorecadenza's Avatar
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    May 2020
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    647
    Character
    Miawkwa Fletcher
    World
    Golem
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    My only critique of the garb is that they’re charging nearly twenty bucks for it.

    At least the New World set is technically free. And doesn’t result in them taking in any extra cash per subscription.
    (2)

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