Far Northern Attire

[Melorie]

So, are you arguing that using something from a culture without acknowledging the culture is actively harming said culture?

Well, yes? Should all symbols be stripped of meaning and associations with that particular group of people that actually maintained that culture and be used just as aesthetics? Do you think that transforming these traditions into something hollow as an aesthetic is saving that culture?

For example, in Brazil, it's not uncommon to see people using the Cocar as decorations for their living room. A Cocar is a sacred symbol for many different groups of indigenous people, and it's being banalized and used as a decoration. People have been mass-killing the sacred birds in order to mass produce cocars with their feathers, and the money made from selling them often doesn't get back to the indigenous groups. At all. If you follow any indigenous organization you'll see this discussion over and over again, and how they suffer with this.

The same happens with many other things: technology, knowledge of the plants/medicine, techniques for dealing with textiles, art, etc.

Is that the same things as an online game clothing? No. But transforming traditional things into a pure aesthetic without the involvement of these groups... Well, is quite similar. It's the same process over and over again. The same mindset. This is not effective into celebrating culture.

A good example is the recent Prey movie. Which was made involving native americans in the entire production: writing, research, actors, etc. The quality is clearly different, regardless if you enjoy it. You end up being able to celebrate a culture with the same people that make this culture alive, today, and compensate them for it. It's not hard to do this today, to actually open up space for dialogue and discussion instead of taking whatever you find pretty for yourself.

As a counter point. If you want people to appreciate a culture more, do you not think it would be a good idea to promote it? Rather than going in guns blazing about money, why not take the opportunity to educate people. Something along the lines of, look, this game has added something related to our culture, here is a brief lesson in how this is important to us and what it represents. However, they have not done that on 2 occasions. They have gone in with the aim of getting money, which is exactly the same mentality as the one they are attempting to get money from.
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In the world we live in, a game using your culture to generate money for it is far from representation. You know what's representation? Saami people sharing the profits from the mogstation, Saami artists being involved into the writing of the description or even the concept art. Speaking with cultural institutions from Saami people to know the best path ahead that can make this representation USEFUL for the people that actually make this culture alive and real and holds the knowledge of these traditions. Feeling like a game is doing good because it's getting profit from your traditional clothing without involving you in the process is a stretch.

I feel like there's plenty of discussion regarding kimonos and how you have games that dilute a culture and create a banal impression of it, even a sort of fetishization, especially when it comes to japanese culture. Have you ever searched for this? This happens a lot with japanese references in western media. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I'm not saying that getting money is ALWAYS the answer, but the clothing is at the mogstation, there wasn't a discussion before on how to include these people in the artistic process, financial compensation doesn't impress me as a given solution.

Indigenous group are not a monolith (or any group of people, really). They don't all think the same. Many people will probably not care. However that doesn't mean that cultural institutions hold no value or place in the discussion. You still don't have the right to tax people as greedy just because someone did not answer all your questions, that's quite childish. You might not agree with them completely but assuming they're greedy just because they're talking about money is a bit too much.

[Boblawblah]

As someone that follows closely indigenous movements from a lot of different parts of the world, although I'm not familiar with the Saami situation or culture, it is truly amazing how people defend and act like companies should be able to use a traditional attire/symbols and gain money from them without EVER involving these groups into the discussion. Just grabbing the aesthetic and using it for profit.

Far worse is the amount of people that are quickly to defend SE using traditional attires to make money but turning the moral compass when it comes to cultural institutions that are made from the people that keep this culture alive and pass on the ancestral knowledge wants the same. You don't even KNOW the moral and values of those that participate in the institution, yet you're certain that they're greedy people that have no point or argument that's valuable to discussion.

It's kinda ridiculous. You treat the institution as some sort of greedy villains, band of thugs that only care about money and you don't bat an eye for this huge gaming company that could be doing better when it comes to dealing with cultural symbols.

Weird to see how for some, their 18 usd 3d clothing for their virtual catgirl is more important than any discussion regarding how we should approach cultural representation and how we are able to do it in a way that includes and promotes those that keep that same culture alive. Imagine being this self-centered.

So, are you arguing that using something from a culture without acknowledging the culture is actively harming said culture?

[Raoabolic]

*looks at the new world set*
*sweats profusely*

[SassyAssassin]

its a Klit you owe me money or something now, I guess

How much to get you unoffended? D:

[Ceridwenae]

How much to get you unoffended? D:

Heehee, just to follow up on this (though I said I'd not be back in this thread, but just lightly skimmed through and saw your exchange which gave a grin), I'm actually of Scottish descent on my mum's side, from Clan Grant (craig elachie!), and as it happens, tartan has rules for its usage (not kilts, mind, afaik, but actual tartan does):

https://clan.com/help/terms-and-cond...rtan-copyright

That said, the Black Watch (modern) tartan is nice and one I'd recommend as a general use if anyone wants to wear it for real (in the wild!), and doesn't have a clan tartan of their own, or feels a bit awkward wearing a particular clan's sett. Historically speaking, though, tartans are for anyone, even the clan ones - they're used to welcome people in as much as to identify your clan and feel kinship; when we had my grandad's funeral, even my Norwegian husband wore the tartan (and was proud to do so, as he should be!).

We've even had a thread here before asking for proper tartan kilts/other stuff (I like sashes, myself, I personally wouldn't wear a kilt) - it's easy enough to design your own that doesn't infringe any copyrights* and would be fun to see.

*that said, not really sure how that pertains to a digital sett of pixels, and some designs are out of copyright anyway.

[SassyAssassin]

Heehee, just to follow up on this (though I said I'd not be back in this thread, but just lightly skimmed through and saw your exchange which gave a grin), I'm actually of Scottish descent on my mum's side, from Clan Grant (craig elachie!), and as it happens, tartan has rules for its usage (not kilts, mind, afaik, but actual tartan does):

https://clan.com/help/terms-and-cond...rtan-copyright

That said, the Black Watch (modern) tartan is nice and one I'd recommend as a general use if anyone wants to wear it for real (in the wild!), and doesn't have a clan tartan of their own, or feels a bit awkward wearing a particular clan's sett. Historically speaking, though, tartans are for anyone, even the clan ones - they're used to welcome people in as much as to identify your clan and feel kinship; when we had my grandad's funeral, even my Norwegian husband wore the tartan (and was proud to do so, as he should be!).

We've even had a thread here before asking for proper tartan kilts/other stuff (I like sashes, myself, I personally wouldn't wear a kilt) - it's easy enough to design your own that doesn't infringe any copyrights* and would be fun to see.

*that said, not really sure how that pertains to a digital sett of pixels, and some designs are out of copyright anyway.

Thank you this is all very informative but a question still remains about men in kilt and you are the one who can properly answer it.

Does it get the proper ventilation or is it held in captivity? Is it free?

[VelKallor]

Does it get the proper ventilation or is it held in captivity? Is it free?

" Dont ask..dont tell "

[Nightroad]

One of my heroes once said : If you want to know what is going on , follow the money.

Oh , and bought !

[Greyhawk]

SE can kindly tell them to fk off.

This just makes me want to go buy the outfit, and I don't even really like it all that much.

While we are at it, where is PETA too? I mean, look at all these animals we are using, riding, killing for experience, stuffing and using for decoration and pets.

*eye roll*

[Burmecia]

If other people are certain that these costumes here don't look the same as each other, then I really don't know what more I can say.

The sami costume thing can be made out of blue wool fabric, but not all blue wool fabric tunic-like pieces of clothing are sami costume thing.



There is plenty of places where the preferred colour is black; there is green and yellow gakti too --- looks like most colours are ok until they are not. And as i understood broadcloth is not the only one used, cotton, silk, synthetic fabrics and leather among others are ok.

If you were to sew Northern attire yourself, like as real piece of clothing for cosplay, the pattern/design/cut would be pretty different from sami costume thing. This is probably what I was looking for from the beginning; not the colours but the damn design. I'm not the most skilled dressmaker, one shouldn't be to see that the shape of the these two pieces of clothing is far apart from one another.



And the embroidery in FF14 glamour looks more like russian style to me.