Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Valence]

RDM on introduction was also violently simple, as is (and has remained) DNC.

I agree with the rest of your post, but that part is factually not true. DNC has gone through rather severe drops in complexity, which I evoked earlier (loss of AoE melee in the single target flourish, loss of proc overwriting with the need to safeguard against procs just before flourishes, and loss of standard step weight in priority), the two latter ones that I agree with the changes overall but they still lowered one of the only complexities the job had for itself. DNC is NOT the same as it used to be at all, even how deceptive its overall structure looks like.

RDM if anything has become simpler in mobility due to elongated melee phases with the new finishers, and the addition of reprise. RDM has always been violently simple only in accessibility, not in terms of skill ceiling.

[Valence]

If a Job sucks, then let it continue to suck. If the Devs thought Old SMN was in a corner, they could just give them a new animation for Miasma and Egi Assault and then call it a day. Make no additional changes to the rotation in future expansions, just an occasional graphic upgrade to a spell. Then people can't complain the Job was changed, and if it sucks...well, then it just sucks and they want it to suck, so...let it suck. They can't complain it's not being changed, since they are on the record not wanting it reworked. They can't complain the Devs are just being lazy or vindictive since we know they would complain if the Devs seriously looked at and changed the Job. So the Job could exist as a more or less time capsule with some pretty window dressing. And that would be fine. The people that would love it would continue to love it. After all, if people loved ShB SMN, they can't well complain that it isn't changed since they already LOVE IT as it was.

I think if people want some Jobs to be terrible and unfun to play, because they somehow find that fun, that's fine, and they should absolutely be allowed to keep that. I don't think they should force it on everyone else/change other Jobs to be like that, but it's fine if some Jobs are like BLM and suck. Some few people will find them fun, everyone else will avoid them like the plague, and everyone can be vaguely happy together.

I nominate this post for being a pristine, prime example of objectivity and non hyperbolic statements, from someone that went on multiple endless rants about that since the beginning. Bonus points for the absolute condescension and the utter hypocrisy.

Honestly, it's all well and good to lecture people on logical fallacies, but it sure would look better if the posts that went with it were also immaculate in that regard.


Edit: because why the hell not, I feel like you're on a rampage to make people lose neurons at this point.

Stop.
With.
The.
Attempted.
Gotcha.
Ad.
Hominem.
Fallacy.

As I noted, you're being antagonistic, and if you weren't aware, ad hominem (what you're doing right now - attacking/addressing me directly, not my argument) is a logical fallacy. "attack on the person" or "addressing the person" rather than their argument. It's an attempt to sidestep arguments that are difficult to overcome.

This has nothing to with an ad-hominem or attack to your person or dodging your argument. You argued that the other party was never saying anything good about current SMN. They went back and dug an example where they actually did, debunking your argument by counter example. This is by all definitions, everything but an ad-hominem, this is literally a mathematical proof of invalidity of your statement (therefore, the content and the argument, and not the person).

If anything, you're the one guilty of a moving the goalposts fallacy here, trying to dodge the nullification of your previous argument, which has, in fact, been addressed, but you are ignoring it on purpose (like almost everything anyway). On top of it, you're definitely guilty of ad hominem to boot since you're the one dodging the rebuttal of your earlier statement by directly going for the form of the message of your opponent instead of actually addressing its contents.

Honestly, don't try playing games with logical fallacies. I don't think you're even as good as mastering them as you think you are, and you're probably not gonna win on that front, especially since every single one of your posts is littered with them (argumentum ad populum being your absolute winner).

[Valence]

I think you don't understand the point. SAM has a somewhat complex rotation, but it closes its loop. You have something that's basically 1-2-3-1-4-1-5-6 (however you want to arrange it), and then 7. You also will occasionally 1-2-7. But the rotation is more or less closed. SAM I don't play as much, so I'll use MNK, as I'm more familiar with it. MNK's rotation is 18 buttons long, but it moves between abilities and the loop closes at the end to get back to the beginning. 1-2-3-4-5-6-1-2-6-4-5-3-1-2-6-4-5-6-back to start. It's satisfying because it is a nicely closed loop that cycles. You don't end it with 4-5-clip to 1-2-3. You finish off the loop and then it begins again. It's smooth and requires thinking about what you're doing, but there's a correct way to do it, and that's it. It's not simple (in the sense of complex or braindead), yet it's smooth and deterministic.

I don't like rotations where you have to do stupid stuff like "You have a buff and can use Atonement 3 times, but every other time...yeah, you just use two of those". And MNK's, for all that it's static, has hiccups in it when you do use the Nadi finishers, but the core rotation is nice and and I like it. I prefer the "choice" being in things like when to use oGCDs or when to use movement tools that don't disrupt your rotation (things like Ruin 4), but I like rotations that are closed loops IF they're rotations.

This hurts to read. Go look up a guide for MNK and SAM before posting such enormities. It doesn't do you any credit, for whatever is even left anyway.

[Zairava]

This hurts to read. Go look up a guide for MNK and SAM before posting such enormities. It doesn't do you any credit, for whatever is even left anyway.

I pretty much stopped bothering once I read this:

Old PLD...lacked consistent self-sustain healing in its rotation

Holy Spirit/Circle has been providing sustain since expansion launch, and the Confiteor combo has been as well since 6.1, and in both old and new PLD were timed incredibly consistently at around the same points in each rotation respectively. That isn't even counting the regen from Holy Sheltron since we are strictly mentioning rotational sustain. The problem was not with the sustain, PLD fell behind defensively, which is what was remedied in the rework when they Brought bulwark back and made [Holy]Sheltron give a flat damage reduction instead of blocking.

There still is the issue of button bloat for Paladin though..

[Dahlinea]

New SMN is fine.

No. YOU think SMN is fine. Pretty much everyone knows it can't stay the way it is right now. I already said it before: because it just works doesn't mean the job is fine.
A quick inspection in SMN rotation and you can see that even being as simple as it is there are elements that works against each other there. For instance, your main abilities (the 3 summons) that you use between your bursts are locked behind the burst phases. In a scenario you want to hold your bursts for whatever reason you simply can't because otherwise you'll be left with only Ruin III, which is just a filler spell to wait for Bahamut/Phoenix come from CD if you're using the miminum amount of SS (that gerenally amounts to one cast only). This needs to be adressed because it not only works against the SMN rotation in a backwards way but also put severe restraints to your options in the job, being one of the main reasons the job is so braindead.
But I mean, believe what you want to believe. You like the job and will the defend no matter how bad it is anyways, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. We want current SMN to be better and engaging, not the old one back(since the job is already reworked anyways...), like you've been implying throughout the whole thread.

Also, just to address your "personal attack" claim. It's not personal attack, it's what I've gathered from you by reading all posts up until now.

[ForsakenRoe]

Oh is this where they went after the healer section chewed him out? I thought I saw him in the tank section too, I guess his 'break from the forums' was just a break from the healer section. Shame he's still up to his old tricks (using logical fallacies, claiming others are, or claiming people are 'attacking him', and if all else fails, just saying 'clearly you didn't even read my post'), I guess a leopard really doesn't change its spots

[Fryfor]

I find it ironic that an advocate for the devs to 'not change anything' also doesn't engage with the parts of the game that actually makes you use every bit of a job's kit!

Go figure. Dude is not an elaborate troll, by the way.

[JacobNewblood]

Just wanna say I love your signature!

As someone who played SMN in ShB and EW.

( I was not in any way the best player )

I love and hate the new SMN.

The main thing I wanted in EW for SMN was a change to the Demis. Mainly I wanted DWT to augment our ruins like Firebird did to add bahamut aesthetic and for the demis to remain in place after being summoned (and have hard casts be our movement limiting factor). And Hey! we got that in EW! (( I would also have liked if we got the ability to choose what Demi we summon but hey, we got it in PVP so ill take it))

But... I liked the DOTs, I liked Bane and such. I like building up to the Demi Summons,
((And why did we lose firebird trance at 72? why??? now we just WOOHOO summon Phoenix, (I know the lore reason but I like FBT, felt like a nice buildup))

I don't hate new SMN, but I miss aspects of old.

And I liked the auto attacking pet. Had its uses!

[CelestiCer]

I think you don't understand the point. SAM has a somewhat complex rotation

I play Samurai 24/7... it's not Complex. We also received like 6+ Simplifications. Be it some were necessary QOL's due to fight designs like...

• Iaijutsu - Increased range
• Third Eye - Increased duration by 1 second
• Enpi - Cast no longer breaks Combo

Others really just make the Job easier and dumber...

• Tenka Goken - Changed from Cone to Circle
• Senei - Kenki cost cut in half less thinking
• Seigan - Third Eye no longer procs Seigan and Seigan removed

The biggest perpetrator for many Samurai players has been " Kaiten removal " bar none.

Some of the above mentioned changes were indeed QOL, but collectively made Samurai easier, hollower and dumber to play. Samurai does still have nuances, and requiring to know how to do more then face-rolling our braindead 2 minute loop is set at " Go play Ultimate ".

What you call Complex? is me performing it in P8S while watching Netflix, while type weaving in-game callouts... it's made literally Braindead. You have Samurai players turning off their Hud's and Hotbars to perform their rotations blindfolded just to make it exciting... that's actually depressing...

[tearagion]

asdf

I'm not saying my definition is the only one, just fully clarifying my position. Otherwise words like "coherent" can be interpreted differently.

Then their goal was to make a bad minion/summon class lol. From a gameplay perspective you don't really feel like you summon much: you have almost no control over the summons (you get 1 Enkindle a minute), and your summons don't have a great impact on your gameplay either (no, I don't consider changing your "Ruin II" button to a different colour is particularly impactful, and Astral Flow has problems imo).

Popularity doesn't necessarily mean "thing people like", there are so many more factors that influence popularity. Big one in FF is ease of use, and nothing is easier than SMN.

I guess I would contest with I like jobs that can float a resource to better deal with downtime or alignment, and that too closed a loop just gets really annoying in harder content (like a certain reworked job). Atonement wasn't an elegant example at all, but it's the one thing Bard's Songs do decently at the moment (even if it maxes out at 9s). I don't really remember why this was important if I'm being honest, I think you just wanted to make what yourself clearer?

It wasn't any more or less continuous from how I interpret than newSMN is; it went from Egi resource generation+Filler to DWT to Egi resource generation+Filler to FBT repeat. Just replace one filler with a flashier, but less consequential one. RDM is pretty coherent, but my assertion is that newSMN is less coherent than oldSMN. Old FBT and DWT being different wasn't "incoherent", it was inconsistent. This is why I specified what I meant by coherent. Even using the arguably more applicable definition of coherent, there's no significant rationale for the assertion that it was incoherent other than they should work the same...just because. It's not illogical for the two to work differently, and failing half of that definition it's inaccurate to not just reduce to inconsistent.