Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[ty_taurus]

I get what you mean. The time I had my most fun with SMN was by the end of Heavensward and during Stormblood. If we compare ShB SMN with SB SMN I completely agree that SB was better. It was a shame the Egis didn't work because their abilities were nice. Rouse, Radiant Shield, Earthen Ward, Contagion... I miss those.

I proposed something like that and other things in another thread about future hopes of caster. It was like that about I/G/T filling the gem gauge, the difference is that instead of Bahamut/Phoenix it would give access to a repurposed Tri-disaster ability and expend all gems after using it and reset the summons (or shift, if more summons are added). There I decoupled the 3 summons from Bahamut/Phoenix but it could work as gathering the gems to summons the big ones and makes more sense in this order.

I'd say I prefer this SMN over ShB SMN, but that comes with a caveat. As I mentioned, I like the direction of this SMN, but not the execution, and I think what makes me like this iteration more than the last is that I have more hope for its potential and too much distain for how disconnected Aetherflow and Egis were from the actual act of summoning from ShB, but that's also not a very fair take--to like something for what it might be vs what it actively was.

This SMN is an incomplete puzzle, and a part of that may very well have been intentional. There is a lot of room to build on this SMN over the next 10 years without running into another design ceiling. The garden was overgrown, and the solution was the gut it, then replant only half the garden. On some level, it makes sense, but they could've left the DoTs and old Tri-Disaster, and with a little tweaking to the current arrangement, it may have felt more complete, even if still inflexible with the summons as they are right now. Because even if they don't fit into the future picture, you can always remove them when you're ready to replace them with something more in line with the job's new direction. That's how I foresee Aetherflow going.

I have a few ideas for things that we might see in the coming expansions. Something others have brought up is having Ramuh, Leviathan, and Shiva replace Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda for one use each after summoning Bahamut or Phoenix perhaps, so you'd have a rotation of say Baha > Levi > Ramuh > Shiva > Phoenix > Titan > Ifrit > Garuda > Repeat, or something. Frankly, I cannot imagine R/L/S existing independently of I/T/G as six different variations of DPS just does not fit within the the rules of how this game works. Having a 4th summon of some kind I can see where there's one additional choice of flexibility, but not three. Maybe not exactly as I've written it, but something along those lines seems like the most realistic way to ever get the other 3.

Beyond that I could also see Alexander being a separate action that can be substituted for Bahamut or Phoenix on a 3 minute cooldown or so for a hyper DPS phase where you get to summon Bismarck and Ravana as two longer summon phases in lead up to your next Bahamut/Phoenix, though that seems like more of an 8.0 thing if at all.

[tearagion]

xd

You're insufferable. Just don't respond if you're going to misrepresent, misinterpret, misunderstand, or ignore everything.

[Dahlinea]

Flowers and rainbows

There, more peace for you.

I know you like old SMN . I'm just saying that this new SMN is bad because it is braindead and has barely no mechanics at all!

I'm just remembering you that you forgot how old SMN worked and just kept saying nonsense in comparison with how it actually behaved!

It turns out it has a few positives to it - other than "braindead", if one considers that a positive (you clearly do not). Sometimes, you may dislike a thing, but should learn to admit when it has things that are in its favor. That's how one can actually prove they know what they're talking about, when they can admit the good things about a thing they oppose, but explain why those don't make up for the bad and it's still a net loss overall.

And it's you that aren't reading all my posts if you say that. The job is braindead and need more flexibility and things to actually decide during fights, not that fake decision making legos. The execution is terrible but has the tools to be good if changes to the rotation are made and the visual are cool. I already said that, but clearly you just gloss over what want to read and discard the rest. Still have the gall to talk about intellectual laziness...

[Renathras]

You're insufferable. Just don't respond if you're going to misrepresent, misinterpret, misunderstand, or ignore everything.

THANK YOU!

That's how I've felt since you posted this:

alright this guy has to be taking the piss at this point

This:

lol

And this:

tldr

newSMN is by definition as, or more, disjointed as/than shbSMN and your colossal post doesn't change that.

.

The difference being I'm actually trying to make good faith arguments and debate/discuss while you're routinely belittling either me, my posting style, my points, or some combination of the above. I almost posted in that last post "You're insufferable", too, I just refrained from doing so.

I'm glad you can see HOW ANNOYING IT IS so that MAYBE you'll stop doing it to me. <_<

You've misrepresented, misinterpreted, misunderstood, or ignored me, my points, and my arguments - and even flaunted that you were doing so. You even did it again with "xd". I know you think you're being cute, but it's rather antagonistic. It's why I use "..." instead of "snip", "clip" or etc because those things tend to set people off, so I only use them if someone's been using them several times in a row to me.

UNLIKE you, I'm trying NOT to " misrepresent, misinterpret, misunderstand, or ignore" what you're saying. I'm trying to directly confront the bits I think are mistaken and explain WHY I think they are.

[VentVanitas]

There is a lot of room to build on this SMN over the next 10 years without running into another design ceiling.

I see so many people say this and I just don't think it's true. What we don't have is a blank canvas, we have an already used canvas with someone's scribblings on it and we either have to paint over it or just get a new one. We're already at the ceiling.

To add more (meaningful) additions to SMN would mean that we would have to restructure how the job works or at the very least reconsider how demi summons work, because in its current state we could put anything in the downtime filler phase and it would effectively not matter so long as it's sandwiched between the rigid structure of the demis and remains disconnected from everything else.

[Renathras]

I'm just remembering you that you forgot how old SMN worked and just kept saying nonsense in comparison with how it actually behaved!

Just stop. You're being intentionally antagonistic. I described how it played BECAUSE I PLAYED IT. It wasn't "reading a guide" (though I DID read guides for it - at the time - BECAUSE I PLAYED IT). You're just being needlessly antagonistic.

And it's you that aren't reading all my posts if you say that. The job is braindead and need more flexibility and things to actually decide during fights, not that fake decision making legos. The execution is terrible but has the tools to be good if changes to the rotation are made and the visual are cool. I already said that, but clearly you just gloss over what want to read and discard the rest. Still have the gall to talk about intellectual laziness...

What did I say in that quote that is wrong?

You think the Job is braindead? That's true.

You dislike the Job? Also true.

You've resisted saying good things about it? Also true. In this thread, what was the last post you said good things about New SMN? Before page 20? Before page 15? Moreover, you make any praise contingent on changes, which isn't praising the extant system.

I've gone back to page 15 so far. I can't find one place you said "It has the tools to be good" and "the visuals are cool", even if we ignore you qualified those with "if it's changed". So even if we count that, you haven't said it in the last 10ish pages of thread. I could probably go back further and also not find it.

I couldn't gloss over what you didn't say.

You're trying desperately for some kind of "gotcha" at this point and failing. Badly.

Maybe you should stop trying to insult me and address actual arguments instead...ad hominem is a logical fallacy for a reason.

.

EDIT: I've gone all the way back to page 1. At no point did you say good things (or even arguably good things) about New SMN as far as I can find.

Maybe you shouldn't lie and make false accusations against people? It would appear my "gall" is well placed.

(As it happens, I read everything I reply to - the entire posts - and am rather Entish about replies. If I'm going to reply to something, I'm going to give it a fully reply as it deserves, and that means I'm also going to read all of it. You MAY accuse me of misunderstanding from time to time, but you can't accuse me of cherry picking from your posts - which you did - and/or ignoring parts:

"gloss over what want to read and discard the rest" is an absolute lie.)

[Dahlinea]

I've gone back to page 15 so far. I can't find one place you said "It has the tools to be good" and "the visuals are cool", even if we ignore you qualified those with "if it's changed". So even if we count that, you haven't said it in the last 10ish pages of thread. I could probably go back further and also not find it.

Go to page 20 and say this again. But don't get me wrong, I like the aethetics and ideas but absolutely condemn the current execution of the job and will keep complaining about it as long as it stays in that sorry braindead state.

[Renathras]

Go to page 20 and say this again. But don't get me wrong, I like the aethetics and ideas but absolutely condemn the current execution of the job and will keep complaining about it as long as it stays in that sorry braindead state.

Only post by you on page 20:

And you're failing to understand that no Colourful Mage the devs introduce will stop people that play SMN to complain about its "no effort" state (because "braindead" is offensive, apparently, despite being the right word for the job right now).
People been justifiably complaining about this trend of the devs in over simplifying job core mechanics for some time now. Now we get an extreme case of a job being reworked and getting all its verticality removed in the process and FOR ABSOLUTLY NO REASON. This is no accessibility at all, for those who want to claim it as such, and people already gave examples of jobs that feature a better a idea of accessibility, like DNC or RDM. The job needed fixes to pet actions' responsiveness and an eased opener, which nearly every old SMN player agreed about it.
The devs created the right tools, the good animations and you can see traces of feedbacks the players gave for the job in the past, but the execution of the job they put out is terrible, the baseline being is your near best approach to the job, leaving no room for players even trying to extract more of it besides one or two tweaks.

You call our arguments subjective but all you did up until now is using your biased conceptions of what the jobs should be as something objective. You're being subjective as hell for the most part of this thread as well.
Also player count doesn't mean anything. If it did, BLM would've been reworked to be a braindead job ages ago.




I don't know man. You said I was like a cultist or something back there.

That it?

"right tools, the good animations" said in a single post several pages ago that was couched in "but the execution of the job they put out is terrible, the baseline being is your near best approach to the job, leaving no room for players even trying to extract more of it besides one or two tweaks"?

Forgive me if I missed, in between you saying it was awful and you saying it was awful, that you liked the animations and...I don't know what you mean by tools here since you can't mean the mechanics or rotation (as you've said both are terrible).

.

Yeah, I don't think you can accuse me of "gloss over what want to read and discard the rest" when you have exactly 4 words (with a "the" in the middle) in 24 pages of posts that you think I "discarded", which were in the middle of you saying it was bad and you saying again it was bad.

[tearagion]

a

What exactly is "good faith" about completely misrepresenting someone else's argument, intentionally or no? If you're "not trying to-" then you should work on your reading comprehension.

You've misrepresented, misinterpreted, misunderstood, or ignored me, my points, and my arguments

Where? Ignore perhaps, but I feel as though I've clearly understood your inane arguments in general.

[dspguy]

I think this is unfortunately part of the problem. FFXIV's combat design has become EXTREMELY rigid. I'm honestly kind of surprised RDM and SMN can raise, and that they haven't shunted all party damage buffs to the Ranged and all party mitigations to either Tanks or Healers. They would probably have all Casters be able to Raise already if it wasn't at such odds with BLM's class fantasy, and they almost removed SMN's in the rework but left it in realizing the weight of legacy and meta on it existing.

In LOTRO (and other games like it), you have a lot more variance. You can have some classes that are more dedicated, and specs to swap them up.

Good points. Simply put, we are pigeon-holed into 3 roles and SE has backed themselves into a corner. This is why we wind up seeing limited jobs like BLU. That's how they can allow these jobs to exist, but not allowing them to do any current content.

Warden was an example of what LOTRO would consider a fairly complicated job. I'd love to see something similar in FFXIV, but it would have to set into one of the three roles and would probably lose all its flavor.