Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Renathras]

Ignoring realitty.

I get you don't like New SMN, but don't lie about it. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it EVERYTHING wrong in the world. Guess what? It's possible for it to be dumbed down, bad, and even a terrible idea while still being less disjointed than Old SMN. And what "by definition" are you referring to, EXACTLY?

You ignored my "colossal post" because it stated clearly WHY and HOW Old SMN was more disjointed than New SMN. New SMN has many things you can complain about with it, but being disjointed isn't one of them.

...

I think it ultimately depends on the player.

Which is kind of my point.

The terms are useless because they have no defined meaning and are just boogieman terms hurled at anything one doesn't like.

The problem with "get a feel for" is that different people "feel" different places. For example, I "feel" SMN is in a very good place right now, and is one of the only DPS Jobs that I don't "feel" has something obnoxious that makes it a chore to play rather than enjoyable to play. The only other one that comes close to me is RDM except for the proc system making it obnoxious. (Not the proc system itself, but how the procs aren't well displayed to the player). It's subjective to the point the term is useless as long as it doesn't catch those feelings like mine along with those like yours. I think we'd agree a Job that pressed one and only one button the entire time would be too much pruning, but the line above that of "cutting into the quick" vs "so long they're snapping off" we likely won't agree on unless there are some kind of objective measures we can employ.

I don't think there's tension "everywhere you look". It's just prominent people talking about it, while the rest of the playerbase remains blissfully unaware. It's kind of like politics. The extreme left and right are the loudest voices and get all the screen time, they're talked about in the news all the time, their politicians are the most outspoken and introduce the most dangerous bills...but then you have the normies which make up the vast majority of both the politicians and the public, EASILY outnumber the extremists on both sides added together, yet since you never hear from them, you'd think they were the minority instead. Listening to Fox or MSNBC and CNN, you'd think the world is about to end and the nation on the brink of one doom or civil war or another. But then you talk to normal people or listen to the middle of the road politicians and wonder where the hell the crazies are getting this from. I feel like FFXIV Job design is probably in a similar boat right now.

If anything, I think RDM is in more trouble than SMN is, for example.

EDIT: To clarify on that...

RDM mostly feels good to play and has its longstanding easy to understand conceptually and pick up, has nuance if one wishes to truly master it going for it. The problem is it is SEVERELY undertuned to the point of not QUITE unviable but not FAR from it for many comps.

It's kind of telling when, with ALL the utility RDM can bring (the Raise aside, it has an extra party mit and a party damage buff) that it is less played in TOP than BLM, the most difficult Caster that has the least utility and the most clunky mechanics. Though it IS possible this is just an artifact of Ultimate design (P8S-2 sees RDM in a far healthier spot, for example), there definitely seems to be a gap in overall damage that shouldn't be there.

When RDM is behind DNC and BRD...there's an issue.

Instead of trying to fix a problem that isn't in SMN, focus should be on fixing the problem that is with RDM. And the fact remains that SMN seems to be widely enjoyed by the playerbase as a whole, so it really ISN'T the problem.

Though as I've long been, I do think the next DPS Job added should be a DoT Caster like Green Mage or something with Old SMN's rotation. I doubt the Devs will do it, but the irony is...Old SMN was straight up 2 min meta, so it would be entirely compatible with the new paradigm...

[tearagion]

I get you don't like New SMN, but don't lie about it. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it EVERYTHING wrong in the world. Guess what? It's possible for it to be dumbed down, bad, and even a terrible idea while still being less disjointed than Old SMN. And what "by definition" are you referring to, EXACTLY?

You ignored my "colossal post" because it stated clearly WHY and HOW Old SMN was more disjointed than New SMN. New SMN has many things you can complain about with it, but being disjointed isn't one of them.

"(figuratively) Not connected, coherent, or continuous." Nothing in newSMN is "connected", it's an incoherent ("united as or forming a whole.") design as every individual design element exists separated mechanically from the others. The closest you get it that Demi summons give you gems, wow truly fantastic.

You should honestly be glad I ignored your post because it's not very good. For example:

You directly describe how HW SMN systems feed into each other synergistically. Aetherflow gives you Aethertrail, Aethertrail gives you Dreadwyrm Trance, Contagion still existed to link your Egi with your DoTs and your Trance. Was it somewhat devoid of classic ff SMN-theme/feel? Sure, but it was objectively a more nuanced and interconnected design.

You don't say anything in the SB paragraph, you just describe how Demi-Bahamut worked. This iteration of Demi-Bahamut could at least be considered "obtuse" which could be strung tangentially to a semi-out-of-context definition of disjointed. Current Demi-Bahamut just sits there and shoots after you press a button. This is disconnected from the rest of the kit compared to SB and ShB Demis.

Non-directional descriptions again. 2 minute meta is only a problem because EVERY job adheres to it, which is what makes it a meta at all, also Devotion was on a 3min CD anyway. Trance CD was 55s. Adding Dreadwyrm Trance's duration gave you lots of flexibility outside of that 2min cycle. You even admit in this paragraph you don't know where Further Ruin came from before lol (15%proc on Egi attacks). Calling newRuin 4 an element of cohesive design because you use it for movement while saying Egis don't do anything is mint.

And then you have 3 paragraphs of "newSMN is totally not disjointed, look at how well the kit slides over a smooth brain". Aetherflow doesn't even have DoTs to interact with, Bahamut and Phoenix don't give a fuck about you anymore and may as well just be the same summon (people would probably like it more if they were, as they would either get more consistent utility or another Deathflare to press), the Gems don't give a fuck about each other, Carbuncle is lobotomized, Your filler is all vanilla GCDs that only involve flat potency, oGCDs are also purely flavourless potency other than Energy Drain which gives you...well you know. How is this in any universe a more interconnected kit. It's a failure unless their only metric for success for the rework was accessibility, and maybe popularity, but we don't have the SE official #s for that and never will.

[Valence]

Out of the whole post I just want to talk about this point right here. You say this change reduced complexity, I say it was a quality of life fix. I will preface this by saying I am not a dedicated Dancer by any means, however, in my experience in playing it, getting to the point where you used Flourish and still having a buff to use was problematic. You could use the buff and delay Flourish for the rest of the fight, or, overwrite the proc and this happened more in my limited usage of Dancer that it was starting to become a bit frustrating. Obviously, there might be something I am missing, but I can see why it was changed.

Which brings me to the main point I want to make. What counts as a reduction in complexity and what counts as a Quality of Life change? Going back to ShB, BLM got Despair as a single target flare option, so they needed a way for you to get back to UI smoothly, so Aspect Mastery was added. Come EW, Aspect Mastery is now gained at level 1. Now, it really isn't needed until level 50 when you get Flare as that is the first spell that drains all of your MP, but at the same time, I have been in situations where I haven't properly calculated MP and so end up with less MP than I thought and being unable to cast Blizzard 3 (at lower levels), so it helps there, but it has removed the need to worry too much about your MP. So, is this a reduction in complexity, or, a Quality of Life feature.

Maybe, Quality of life features for jobs ARE a reduction in complexity. Maybe some are and some are not. I'm sure there are plenty of examples that can be used either way, however, it (mostly) boils down to, the QoL feature changing something about the job that might have been considered a bit unintuitive or it just didn't flow right. So, in this regard, should a job receive QoL if it reduces complexity if it also means smoothing out the rough patches?

There is definitely an interesting discussion to be had there.

I never said it was not a QoL fix. It can be both a downgrade in complexity and a QoL fix. BRD adding charges on ballad procs or decoupling procs from crit, then from dots, is also a downgrade in complexity, yet it's QoL at least for ballad procs (but not really on procs from dots). The problem with SE is that they fix things (when they choose not to completely demolish a job and remake it from scratch), but then they shrug off the loss of complexity that results out of it. That's more or less the point I was trying to make.

Note on what you're missing: the way you dealt with proc overwrite in Flourish was to keep esprit in order to dump a Sabre Dance when you had no proc going, so that you'd not generate a proc just before the flourish ogcd. It added quite a bit of complexity to the rotation, but I'll be the first to admit that considering the volatile aspect of esprit generation it could prove extremely frustrating. Never liked it myself tbh and that's what kept me away from DNC, so believe me when I'm saying I don't hate that change, but I miss the idea of keeping something to dump before flourish in order not to generate a proc if there was none up, I just don't miss that something being tied to the gauge, it was just a headache like ShB MCH heat management before WF.

The real answer is that if one reduces complexity out of QoL actions, then one has to consider whether that complexity was just complexity for complexity's sake, or if it actually brought additional depth and value to skill play, which DNC proc overwrites actually did bring somewhat. Kaiten is another good example that a lot of players and the community seem to have grasped pretty well. Kaiten was removed for obvious reasons (was used with every iajutsu anyway, and proved to be just another button you pressed for every iajutsu, which was kinda bloatey), but at the same time it removed all the play around kenki management and made shinten spamm literally hell (on top of removing a cool looking skill that people were attached to).

[Valence]

"(figuratively) Not connected, coherent, or continuous." Nothing in newSMN is "connected", it's an incoherent ("united as or forming a whole.") design as every individual design element exists separated mechanically from the others. The closest you get it that Demi summons give you gems, wow truly fantastic.

I'm happy some people see this as well since it's literally what jumped right at my face as soon as I saw new MCH in ShB media tour. Nothing is connected in the kit besides some arbitrary gauge generation from the basic filler. Everything is just a bunch of actions that all do a certain potency and have a certain cooldown. It's really, really not mechanically engaging, it's literally bottom floor of intricacy. Yet the job proved popular because the new visual identity had some flair and cool looking things added for the expansion, much like people lost their s*** when they saw the job trailers for SB SMN and bahamut was there, and same for ShB with phoenix, although now it seems to have really dialed down in popularity (the less people like it the happier i'll be, heh, i'm spiteful like that).

The only thing I like about new SMN is the possibility to swap the colored legos around. Too bad there is very little significance around that too (especially when BRD would love to be able to do this with songs, where it's a lot more meaningful).

I'm legit starting to wonder if the crux of the problem since SHB hasn't been all about this tbh: loss of intricacies in every kit across the board bar a few exceptions. The irony about it is that all the new pvp kits have an insane degree of intricacy with thrice less buttons.

[Dahlinea]

Oh?
Wall of text with a lot of misconceptions

Fist of all, ShB SMN was not disjointed the way you paint it to be. The more I read your posts the more I see that you didn't understand how to play old SMN at all and probably just read how it works on some site teaching how to play and optimize it... or is just outright trolling.

Energy Drain/Syphoon gave Fester that needed DoTs applied to get its maximum damage. DoTs were applied either by using Bio and Miasma or Tri-disaster. The latter were refreshed every time you used DWT or Summon Phoenix. Egi-assaults gave Further Ruin stacks to use Ruin IV during movement phases outside Bahamut or during Bahamut to maximize its Wyrmwave attacks that were triggered by our spells. Want to call it cluncky because of pet responsiveness? Fine. But disjointed? Nah... you don't seem to know the old job like you claim it.

Current SMN is more disjoint than ever, the only thing tying something to another one is summoning Bahamut/Phoenix to have access to your legos and that's one of the reasons the job is so rigid. Your legos don't interact with each other, they are all disjoint and don't affect anything else in the rotation. Bahamut/Phoenix are self contained and don't interact with anything else in the rotation. The Demis are glorified DoTs now and do their attacks automatically. Aetherflow just give Fester, which don't need anything from the rotation to do its max damage, and a single Ruin IV that's worthless as a tool for movement since 90% of SMN spells are instacast. Would be better if Aetherflow gave 2 or more stacks of hardcasted Ruin IV spells to use for filler instead of Ruin III in a optimal scenario...

Also

There aren't disparate systems; there almost aren't any systems at all.

You said it all. There is basically no system to manage, that's why the job is braindead as it is. And that's why we're complaining about it.

[ty_taurus]

Current SMN is more disjoint than ever, the only thing tying something to another one is summoning Bahamut/Phoenix to have access to your legos.

I disagree on this point. I will say, overall, I really like the general direction that we are trying to take SMN in, but unhappy with the execution. It just is very inflexible and feels like the kit is unfinished and empty right now, but is otherwise a good foundation for something more. ShB SMN was the most disjointed of all iterations by far. It felt like the kitchen sink job--a garage sale of many different pieces that have no interaction with one another outside of specific, isolated combinations. SB SMN was very punishing, but I think that was peak SMN experience. It felt way more cohesive than ShB's smoothie challenge headache.

[Dahlinea]

It felt like the kitchen sink job--a garage sale of many different pieces that have no interaction with one another outside of specific, isolated combinations.

Yeah I can't agree with that or we're having different interpretations of what "disjoint" means. Disjoint for me is isolated pieces or independent and current SMN has a lot of independent blocks that don't interact with each other at all. Old SMN had dependencies, abilities resetting because of using other ones, the potency of Fester altering because of because of DoTs, using Egi-assaults before so we get to use Ruin IV during Bahamut to take most of it... I can't see this as disjoint at all.

I can understand your point if you mean that those abilities are not of same nature to be interacting with each other, because as a job system when you look at them as purely skills and abilities they did interact.

I just hope they free Bahamut/Phoenix from being a requirement to accessing the legos and add more additional abilities to fill the gaps the job has on next expansion.

[ty_taurus]

Yeah I can't agree with that or we're having different interpretations of what "disjoint" means. Disjoint for me is isolated pieces or independent and current SMN has a lot of independent blocks that don't interact with each other at all. Old SMN had dependencies, abilities resetting because of using other ones, the potency of Fester altering because of because of DoTs, using Egi-assaults before so we get to use Ruin IV during Bahamut to take most of it... I can't see this as disjoint at all.

I can understand your point if you mean that those abilities are not of same nature to be interacting with each other, because as a job system when you look at them as purely skills and abilities they did interact.

I just hope they free Bahamut/Phoenix from being a requirement to accessing the legos and add more additional abilities to fill the gaps the job has on next expansion.

I mean, I'll definitely grant that SMN was never a major part of my gameplay experience prior, so my opinion is definitely one worth taking with a grain of salt, but it was the one DPS I played at least somewhat frequently at times prior to ShB since ARR.

But what I liked about SB SMN was that it felt like most of what you did was all working toward this one big moment where you summoned Bahamut. ShB removed that aspect, and the Egi Assaults into Ruin IV didn't contribute to that either. It felt like the thing I wanted to do, which is summon, was always interrupted by fidget tasks to keep my damage decent until I could summon again. The remaining connection Tri-Disaster had with summons was the one thing that felt connective.

EDIT: You know, having said that, wouldn't it be an incredibly simple change to just rearrange the Ifrit/Titan/Garuda relationship with Bahamut/Phoenix? Like instead of Bahamut and Phoenix granting you 1 of each gem, what if Summon Ifrit/Titan/Garuda gives you that respective gem instead of taking it, and you need to have 3 different gems to summon Bahamut or summon Phoenix? Like, that's not the magic cure for everything, but it immediately allows you to just resummon Titan if you need to delay your burst, and also makes it very easy to add a 4th summon potentially that is interchangable and has some other element that encourages all 4 see use throughout the fight at different times?

You can still summon Bahamut right away at the beginning of an instance for your opener.

[Dahlinea]

I mean, I'll definitely grant that SMN was never a major part of my gameplay experience prior, so my opinion is definitely one worth taking with a grain of salt, but it was the one DPS I played at least somewhat frequently at times prior to ShB since ARR.

But what I liked about SB SMN was that it felt like most of what you did was all working toward this one big moment where you summoned Bahamut. ShB removed that aspect, and the Egi Assaults into Ruin IV didn't contribute to that either. It felt like the thing I wanted to do, which is summon, was always interrupted by fidget tasks to keep my damage decent until I could summon again. The remaining connection Tri-Disaster had with summons was the one thing that felt connective.

I get what you mean. The time I had my most fun with SMN was by the end of Heavensward and during Stormblood. If we compare ShB SMN with SB SMN I completely agree that SB was better. It was a shame the Egis didn't work because their abilities were nice. Rouse, Radiant Shield, Earthen Ward, Contagion... I miss those.

EDIT: You know, having said that, wouldn't it be an incredibly simple change to just rearrange the Ifrit/Titan/Garuda relationship with Bahamut/Phoenix? Like instead of Bahamut and Phoenix granting you 1 of each gem, what if Summon Ifrit/Titan/Garuda gives you that respective gem instead of taking it, and you need to have 3 different gems to summon Bahamut or summon Phoenix? Like, that's not the magic cure for everything, but it immediately allows you to just resummon Titan if you need to delay your burst, and also makes it very easy to add a 4th summon potentially that is interchangable and has some other element that encourages all 4 see use throughout the fight at different times?

You can still summon Bahamut right away at the beginning of an instance for your opener.

I proposed something like that and other things in another thread about future hopes of caster. It was like that about I/G/T filling the gem gauge, the difference is that instead of Bahamut/Phoenix it would give access to a repurposed Tri-disaster ability and expend all gems after using it and reset the summons (or shift, if more summons are added). There I decoupled the 3 summons from Bahamut/Phoenix but it could work as gathering the gems to summons the big ones and makes more sense in this order.

[Renathras]

....

New SMN - Demis feed into Primals, Primals feed into their sub-phase, Ruin 4 exists as a movement tool during two of the phases if needed, and that's the Job. The only thing "off to the side" (another way of saying "disjointed") is Energy Drain, Energy Siphon (though those prep Ruin 4, so they have a reason to exist, they just make less thematic sense), and Fester. Painflare, technically coming from Bahamut, thematically makes sense for SMN to have. The only part of the kit that doesn't thematically make sense is the Aetherflow part, but it IS connected to the Job as a whole as driving its burst as weaves between Bahamut GCDs.

(Note: Not having DoTs to interact with isn't part of a definition of connected or coherent.)

Old SMN had DoTs that weren't connected to the rest of its kit. Egi-Assaults that weren't connected to the rest of the kit. Ruin 4 that derived from Egi-Assaults for......no one knows (this is just as disjointed as New SMN's generation of Ruin 4, not somehow better). Bahamut was disjointed from Phoenix. Aetherflow STILL made no lore sense for Summoner and was just this weird thing on the side, especially once it was removed from DWT. None of the systems were connected or tied together other than DWT leading into Bahamut. Ruin 4 was used under Bahamut but had no connection to it. Egi-Assaults were used in the filler for movement but had no connection to DWT or FBT, and only had a connection to Bahamut indirectly. Aetherflow and Fester weren't connected to DWT, FBT, Bhamaut, or Egis, were only connected to the DoTs through one ability (Fester), and only vaguely connected to DWT and FBT via Tri-Disaster being refreshed by them (but T-D existed independent of DWT and FBT, so it's only a tenuous connection).

New SMN, everything's connected and continuous other than Energy Drain/Fester, which is kind of a side game like AST Cards that isn't connected to the main system.

Old SMN, DoTs weren't connected to anything other than Fester, Aetherflow wasn't connected to anything except DoTs ONLY WHEN using Fester, Bahamut wasn't connected to anything, Egis weren't connected to anything, and DWT and FBT were only connected to each other via shared CD, and loosely to Tri-Disaster which also existed by itself over to the side.

Old SMN was very much more disjointed, if we're using the definition of "not connected, coherent, or continuous". You can bask in the 12 people that can read a definition then upvote a thing that violates that very definition, but it's still wrong.

.

Again, admitting New SMN is less disjointed than Old SMN doesn't make New SMN better. It's not some admission that New SMN is amazing. It's just an admission of reality. /shakeshead

Also, you keep doing the stupid thing. It's not a failure as the kit works fine and the Job is the most popular with players of all the Casters. The word you're looking for there is success. It's okay to say "I don't like something". That's fine. you can say that.

What I'm annoyed with is you lying.

Fist of all,
Wall of text with a lot of misconceptions

First of all, ShB SMN was disjointed.

That's the point.

The thing is, it wasn't BAD. This is what you both are misunderstanding. A thing can be more disjointed YET STILL BE GOOD. Just as a thing can be less disjointed YET STILL BE BAD. It's okay to admit a thing isn't the worst thing every in EVERY POSSIBLE WAY AT ONCE, you know?

Also, you aren't reading my posts, then. I played Old SMN. And as I've said many times, I liked Old SMN. I get you're now just all jumping on me because you don't want to say New SMN has anything going for it. Because for some reason, people seem to think "If I admit a thing I don't like has anything at all good about it, this will somehow surrender my entire position". It...doesn't And the "well, you just read a website and didn't know what you were doing or are trolling"?

Really?

I'm surprised you didn't call my mother fat along with that stupidity.

ou said it all. There is basically no system to manage, that's why the job is braindead as it is. And that's why we're complaining about it.

Yeah, but this is the point: It can't be disjointed if there's nothing really to BE disjointed!

I'm trying to get you guys to stop with the kitchen sink insults of "everything and anything negative must be true about New SMN". It turns out it has a few positives to it - other than "braindead", if one considers that a positive (you clearly do not). Sometimes, you may dislike a thing, but should learn to admit when it has things that are in its favor. That's how one can actually prove they know what they're talking about, when they can admit the good things about a thing they oppose, but explain why those don't make up for the bad and it's still a net loss overall.

It's intellectually lazy to just say everything possible about it is bad and resist any argument as "Wall of text".

There aren't disparate systems...if there aren't systems. Old SMN WAS more disparate than New SMN. The question isn't that. The question is if disparate was better or not. Make that argument instead: It at least has merit.

I disagree on this point. I will say, overall, I really like the general direction that we are trying to take SMN in, but unhappy with the execution. It just is very inflexible and feels like the kit is unfinished and empty right now, but is otherwise a good foundation for something more. ShB SMN was the most disjointed of all iterations by far. It felt like the kitchen sink job--a garage sale of many different pieces that have no interaction with one another outside of specific, isolated combinations. SB SMN was very punishing, but I think that was peak SMN experience. It felt way more cohesive than ShB's smoothie challenge headache.

Bingo.

Perfectly well said.

.

Old SMN was less disjointed, but you can absolutely argue that was a benefit. Using disjointed as a pejorative is just silly, especially since it applies more to Old SMN than New SMN.

And we also have to consider this mechanically and thematically.

Mechanically, Old SMN was more disjointed than New SMN, but thematically...Old SMN was HORRIBLY more disjointed than New SMN. Say what you will about New SMN, it knows it's a Summoner and that's what it does. Old SMN couldn't decide if it was a plague mage, a pet mage, a channeler (DWT was basically SMN channeling Bahamut), or a Summoner (or a whatever-the-heck-Aetherflow-was-er). New SMN very clearly has the Summoner thing going for it, and is thematically consistent on that point with only one major (Energy Drain) and one miner (Sub-Job: Channeler) deviation.. And unlike Old SMN with DWT/Bahamut, the Primals/Favors seems like the Primals are granting you favor to channel their powers, while Old SMN kinda just...had DWT...there.