Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Renathras]

"That "bad players" or something would be able to competently play content?" This is an assumption made about me implying that I harbor some kind of elitism or whatever (common deflection). Adding a question mark doesn't negate the contextual implication of including it when it wasn't necessary.

No, it wasn't. It was a "I don't get why you'd be doing this. Is it because of this? Or is it because of something else?" The reason for the question mark was to leave it open for you to say why if it was something else.

It actually wasn't an assumption or implication, but since it made you feel so, I've deleted it.

I'd comment on the SAM thing, but Mikey_R beat me to it.

You say "rotation doesn't change, you just swap the button" for Xenoglossy/Foul but Foul has a cast time until level 80, meaning it is never used at any point before as a movement tool, so yes, the usage of your Polyglots pre level 80 and 80+ is different and does change your rotation as there's now more considerations on where you place Polyglots rotationally with the addition of having 2, the ability to use them for movement or to weave oGCDs, and with it being your most powerful ST spell.

So no, BLM is not "essentially complete" at level 70, the job develops and meaningfully matures in such a way that what you have to do to perform on the job is very different at level 70 than it is at level 90; same with level 80 to level 90 as well.

Someone already beat me to it, too:

The thing is though, that was the argument of the poster who originally said it as they were just using button count and not how the buttons interact with the job. Going back to Summoner and Elemental Mastery, yes, it is just 1 button, however, it changes for different summons, an oGCD, a long cast ground DoT and then a 2 GCD melee strike with a gap closer. Baring Titan's oGCDs, the others need to have some thought put into where you use them. Do you swift cast the Slipstream or do you think you will need it for Ifrit, is the boss going to stand still long enough to get all the DoT ticks in, can I safely dash in or do I need to delay it. There are considerations in place that will affect your rotation if you just look at more than surface level.

Note, I am not arguing that Summoner is not a simple job, it is, however, just scratch away at the surface and you can see where the thought lies.

So it comes down to what we consider "meaningful change".

Elemental Mastery CHANGES SMN's rotation in the sense of the buttons pressed and sometimes the order you might use the Primals. Before 86, you might use Ifrit in a forced disengage phase because the long casts don't matter if you can turret from range, but after 86, you'll avoid Ifrit if there's about to be a force disengage mechanic set, such as Ex5's +/box attack if you have the spread marker. You don't want to be forced to stand and cast for that, but if you have the spread marker, you definitely don't want to be forced to charge to the center. ZodEx you wouldn't use Ifrit before his huge diagonal attack if the safe spot is the far side of the field, but P3 Leviathan you could, since you could sit at range and hardcast twice without difficulty.

It changes Garuda from being 4 instant casts to Garuda including a long hardcast. That change is comparable (though in reverse) to the Foul/Xenoglossy change.

Paradox allows you to move around other button use, which is exactly how SMN's Primals work, allowing you to move the instant cast vs cast time portions of your rotation around. And again, after Elemental Mastery, this actually leads to changes in your rotation.

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So what it comes down to is NOT "SMN has the same rotation at level 70 and level 90". Because it clearly does not and other Jobs have a similar situation (I'll note no one contested any of the others I mentioned besides BLM - which was a Job I didn't even lock to level 70 in the first place...)

That's just a "kitchen sink" argument to throw something else at the wall and see if it sticks, not a valid critique of New SMN.

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I'll also note the ONLY ONE of my examples you guys contested was BLM. So, you accept that Jobs like RDM and so on ARE complete by level 70 as well, I take it?

On a the same side, the DRG got only one more button press between 70 and 80 which stardiver, and between 80 and 90 another one which is Wyrmwind Thrust.
Red Mage added actions are only Scorch and Resolution + Magic Barrier and movement tools.
Ninja got 3.5 more actions between 70 and 90, Meisui, Bunshin/Phantom Kamaitachi and Raiju skills.

In a nutshell, most job are somehow complete at lvl 70, and addition past 70 are usually not game changing.

Mhm. Exactly.

I didn't even say most. I just said around 1/3rd that I'm fairly familiar with.

Other than MNK.

MNK...well, okay, not sure if it's so much MNK changes from 70-90 NOW as it is going from 80 MNK in ShB to 90 MNK in EW, it felt pretty different because of Blitz being added...but someone just leveling MNK today might not notice that since they get it at a lower level. Thought he level 90 skill requires you to have both Nadi and all three Beast Chackras, though.......I guess it IS "just" an upgrade of Tornado Kick at level 60 now. Brotherhood (70) tends to lead to a lot of procs, so that feels like a change...I dunno, I don't know MNK well enough to comment, but I feel like it does play different at 90 than 70. But all the other Jobs I currently play really don't other than PLD and WHM. And as I stated, RDM is pretty much done at level 70.

The bigger problem with SMN - which oddly no one has mentioned - is that it's rotation is basically the same from level 22 to level 60. The only changes you get in between 22 and 60 is an AOE version of Energy Drain and Fester and ARGUABLY DWT (since it does make your Ruins instant for its duration, but doesn't change the buttons you press or their order at all), but the rotation is completely identical in every other way. At 60 you add Deathflare, which is a slight modification to your single target rotation since you have another oGCD weave, then at 62 you Ruin IV, which now allows you a built in movement tool for Ifrit phases, 66 is Searing Light, which isn't a huge change but is when you actually have an "opener" and party buff, 70 you get Bahamut, which gives you a second oGCD weave. Then from 70-86, your rotation itself doesn't really change again, since Phoenix plays just like Bahamut other than you put Excogitation on the Tank instead of using a second Deathflare.

But, again, at level 86, the rotation actually DOES change since it alters when you might use Garuda and Ifrit from the use cases you might have used them before - Ifrit is now bad for movement and for forced disengages, and Garuda is now bad for extended movement that might last longer than her four instant casts, which are quicker 1.5 sec GCDs (so longer than 6 seconds rather than the typical 10 seconds that Titan allows for)