Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Renathras]

You can't use a reworked job's level 70 gameplay as a frame of reference for anything, because the rework is specifically designed for level 90 play. You might as well be looking at level 10 gameplay in a new job with a starting level of 70. I know that some people here are oddly passionate about their Sastasha prog, but I personally don't care how a job is put together outside of max level. It only makes sense if you're looking at a job like BLM, where the job in question has been relatively untouched and you can get a feel of how older 'iterations' played as you progress through the levels.

The 'depth' of a job is largely a function of perception. You might think that a job lacks depth, but that could easily be a reflection of your own lack of knowledge on the subject. That's why players are more likely to think jobs that they've invested a lot of time into have more depth than the rest.

Exactly.

Most of these things are subjective - matters of individual perception. And individual tastes will vary. Some people love BLM, some are okay/meh on it, and some hate it with a passion. This is true of almost every Job in the game. Honestly, I can't think of a single Job that is universally praised by everyone. The only ones I can think of that are remotely close are maybe...RDM? Maybe WAR?

WAR isn't even universal, because some people think it's "braindead" (more hyperbole stupidity, funny how people latch onto a word like a magical talisman, thinking it somehow will make their arguments for them when all it is is an ad hominem fallacy...), and RDM isn't because people complain about its damage being too low. Mechanically, I think RDM (in terms of abilities and rotation) is PROBABLY the closest Job in the game to the playerbase NEAR universally thinking it's a good Job overall, and even then, you get some naysayers here, like...

That’s my last response to you.

< ...follows with more response >

It's like talking to a cultist or something.

"I think you should consider-"
"HERETIC!!!!"

RDM mechanically works the same as it does at level 70. The only things that happen after level 70 are you get Scorch at 80, Resolution at 90, and you get Reprise (which is a movement tool and not part of your standard rotation), Verthunder/Aero III which is a straight upgrade and doesn't alter your rotation, and Magick Barrier which is a 2 min oGCD and not part of your rotation and doesn't change how you play. RDM literally plays the same from level 70 (when you have Verflare at 68 and Verholy at 70) to level 90. The core rotation is all the same, you have Embolden at 58 and Manafication at 60, and your rotation of build 50/50 (slightly off balance) and use your melee combo finishing with the opposite polarity Holy/Flare you have at level 70. You even have Verraise, the crux of your party utility, at level 64. Everything higher than that, the rotation is identical.

You literally have NO MORE buttons to press (not counting Magick Barrier and Reprise, anyway), and merely press your Jolt button twice after Holy/Flare. THAT'S IT.

That took me all of 10 seconds to think of another Job after you said it's not fine for a Job at 90 to play the way it did at 70. What, you're going to say RDM is a bad Job too, now?

It's hardly the only one.

MCH has its entire core rotation effectively by level 45, latest 50 (when you get Ricochet). The only major change after that is Barrel Stabilizer at 66, as the other abilities are just "More Hotshots" (Air Anchor is a straight upgrade from it and Drill and Chainsaw are used the same way, with the only caveat being that Chainsaw is a higher priority for Reassemble if in AOE situations, which isn't relevant for single target fights anyway). Queen is a direct upgrade from Rook - to the point Queen takes its hotbar spots - so changes nothing in use there. WAR's is finished evolving around level 70 with Inner Release, but it has its core rotation MUUUCH earlier, and some might argue by 54 with Fell Cleave. GNB starts at 60 and has its rotation basically complete at 76 with Bloodfest (after that, all it gets is an upgrade to Danger Zone, and you use Double Down for your burst in place of a Burst Strike - the rotation itself is otherwise the same). The Healers have their core rotations done by level 30, if even that, with the only exception (ironic given how much people rag on it as the easy one) being WHM, which isn't done until level 74 when it gets Misery. NIN doesn't change much from 80 to 90, just getting a follow-up attack button after Raiton and the Bunshin button changing to a ranged AOE attack that you can hold for a bit but which doesn't significantly alter your rotation, either.

What does the vaunted bastion of high skill ceiling BLM get from 80 to 90? Well, Amplifier to give them a Polyglot stack, and Paradox which.......in practice just replaces a Fire/Ice when you swap elements. Oh, and they get a flashier Fire and Blizzard effect...uh...for AOE. Though to be fair to BLM, its rotation isn't in a more or less complete state until level 76, I guess? At level 70 you have Foul, which is what you replace by swapping it out for Xenoglossy at level 80 (so in effect, the rotation doesn't change, you just swap the button in that spot on your hotbar for single target fights). Once you have Umbral Soul at 76 (for downtime or recovery), you more or less have your finalized rotation, just you swap a button (Xenoglossy for Foul as your movement tool you try not to overcap resource on) and Paradox...actually takes the place of Fire/Blizzard 1 on your bar, so you actually don't even change the place your finger/thumb pushes on your hotbar. Not counting downtime/recovery, BLM's rotation is essentially complete at level 70 as well - though given BLM is BLM, I'm going with 76 on that one, but opinions may vary.

So BOTH of the other Casters more or less have their rotation complete by level 70ish, with BLM having one change at 76 and otherwise just button swaps, and RDM's is actually complete at level 70. WAR and MCH also are done around level 70 (if not earlier), GNB isn't far off at 76, which is also when BLM is donedone, and all the Healers other than WHM are done with their core rotation by level 50 if not well earlier, with WHM being the only exception owing to getting Misery at 74. NIN is done at 80, and PLD is done around 76 as well (you just gradually swap out Holy Spirits under Requiescat for Confetior, one at level 80 and then three more presses of the same button at 90).

At the most strict view possible, WAR, SCH, AST, SGE, MCH, and RDM all have their base rotation complete by level 70.

And the thing is: SMN actually DOES change between 70 and 90 since Elemental Mastery at level 86 actually DOES change your button presses. "It's just one button" yes, but it's one button that acts in different ways. Scorch and Resolution act the same way, Polyglot and Paradox act the same way. Crimson Cyclone, Mountain Buster, and Slipstream all have to be used in different ways. But if you want to say "that's just one button", then every one of the Jobs I mentioned above have their complete rotation no later than 76, and 6 of them (which is 1/3rd of the Jobs in the game) are done at level 70.

So it's not really that strange at all for Jobs to play the same at 90 as they do at 70, as around a third of the Jobs in the game besides SMN already do so.

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In short: That's not a very good argument you have there...

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Also, no, not every single instacast of Old SMN was used to weave something. A number of them were, and you had some choice if you wanted to do a double and change or triple before FBT depending on what the fight required, but no, they didn't all have set places in the rotation other than the one natural Bio refresh per 2 min cycle and the insta-casts that were part of Trances. Even within Bahamut, you could technically move the Ruin 4s around, though you generally didn't want to start with one (potential ghosting). Things were NOT that tight as you claim - if they were, Old SMN wouldn't have the flexibility - the "choice" - that you've been insisting all this time it had. It can't BOTH be so rigid every last GCD had a specific spot in the rotation and could not be moved...while ALSO being a flexible Job that offered players tons of choice. It cannot be both at the same time.

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2, 3, 4) No, you guys have been insisting the Job was not fine and required changes. I pointed out it did not. You tried to defend your position talking about depth. I noted that a Job does not need to have depth to be functional and viable and good in the context of the game. New SMN actually requires thinking in terms of when to use (or not use) Ifrit and, to a lesser extent, Garuda. That requires some preplanning and thinking ahead. "What is the boss going to do ~10-15 seconds from now? What is the next set of mechanics? Can I put Titan under burst for the higher DPS it gives, or do I need to hold it for an upcoming movement phase?" These are all choices and thinking about the fight and carefully consider your hard casts and insta casts. While it IS a smaller part of the rotation (~10-15 sec chunks of time), the reason I'm using your exact same words is because that's literally what you're doing on New SMN. New SMN is not "just use the highlighted skill". Again, that is your hyperbole. It ISN'T as complex as Old SMN...

But who is saying it is??

No one. You're arguing against a strawman no one is making.

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This I'm going to get a direct quote of:

6) Instead, you could just admit that you like the braindead job and want it to stay that way with no depth.

Why? That'd be a lie. I don't like "braindead" Jobs.

My contention is that New SMN isn't braindead. Why would I say I like a thing that I don't like and which New SMN isn't?

Also, it would be a lie to say I want it to say "with no depth". Again, my contention is that New SMN has depth. Why would I want it not to have what I'm arguing it has?

Because that’s what it seems to me.

That's because you're wrong.

So I’ll say for the last time. New SMN has no depth

So you're wrong again. It doesn't have a LOT of depth, but has SOME depth. This is like someone saying "That kiddie pool has no water in it" when it has 6 inches of water in it.

for a LV90 job and has problems with level progression because of that and that IS NOT ALRIGHT.

As noted above, it's no worse about this than around 1/3rd of the other Jobs in the game. So no, it's not "Case closed", it's you being wrong about something else.

It is, in fact, alright. If it's not, then you'd have to say 1/3rd of the Jobs in the game are also hopelessly broken and must be changed, including other Jobs that are functional and popular in the game.

Moreover, the game is not designed much for the leveling phase. Look at BLM. There are periods where your optimal rotation changes every few levels, and NONE OF THEM are a preview of your level 90 rotation, meaning you build all kinds of bad habits and bad muscle memory if you play "correctly". That's actually FAR WORSE than just having a slimmed down version of your 90 rotation that gradually fills in the gaps as you go.

Case closed.

Again, you can have your OPINION - that's fine. Where I draw the line is when you start saying it's a fact when you say things that...aren't factual. Or you use double-standards that you only apply to the specific targets of your ire and nothing else.

Opinions are fine.

Saying how you feel is fine.

How hard IS it to just say:

"I don't like New SMN since I feel it is too simple and doesn't have enough depth or as high of a skill ceiling as I prefer Jobs to have." ?

How hard is it to say JUST that?

No hyperbole, no stating opinion as facts, just stating your opinion on the matter without the personal attacks, without saying your opinion is a universal fact, and without attacking other posters for having differing opinions of their own?

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Frankly, the animosity by the anti-New SMN people for folks that actually like New SMN is...kinda weird. And unnecessarily aggressive.