Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Dahlinea]

SCH is really the only case of this in that they can, in theory, spam Ruin 2 for an entire fight if they need to for the movement, at an ability cost no greater than Broil IV (MP wise), but the cost in lost damage is significant and so it's not really VIABLE.

That's called "learned and grow within your job" and old SMN had that. You had to maximaze the use of Ruin III and work around uses of Ruin II and Ruin IV. And for record, EW SMN has none of this. You have a set amount of spells you can cast, you can't try to improve on that, there's simply no way.

Generally speaking, "meaningful choices" are short term ones...

And here you're just bending the the term for your own convenience. I won't even bother. You know what I meant by having free choice on spells if you played old SMN.

You aren't giving a "meaningful choice that matters". You're giving an example of optimal gameplay, which isn't a choice. In your above example, it would never be a meaningful choice to choose Garduda during low movement phases because it would (presumably) be suboptimal to using Ifrit, and likewise, for movent, using Ifrit wouldn't be a choice at all.

That is far from the truth. You're given player the choice to use their spells as they see fit and improve their usage. You can play it safe or can go ahead and try to get more damage out of it. That is basically creating a simple improvement environment for the job that EW SMN lacks completely.

Also, the last sentence of your first paragraph isn't even right: "Also 'meaningful choices that matter' means that if you choose another approach to the rotation the result will be different" - use Garuda on SMN during high movement. Now use Ifrit on SMN during high movement. Tell me you didn't get a different result.

Most fights resolve those "high movements" phases quickly enough that using Swiftcast with Ifrit lets you position well enough to hard cast the next. Ifrit is the only I would arguably say you have to do a workaround with little losses. Also, Ifrit alone is a small portion of the kit, if we accept you have to think about it to use it, what you have more? The Garuda ground AoE that does mediocre damage? Everything else is just going on-rails.

And just to contrast a little bit. In most fights, you see yourself sitting in the same place for some time, especially if you position yourself well, more time than you have to use your Ifrit hard casts usually. As a resul,t you keep there in the same place casting insta spells when instead we could have the freedom to choose what type of spells to use and use hard cast during those times.

SMN is a special case since Old SMN and New SMN both had/have this feature going for them. Old SMN had several GCD instants it could move around flexibly, like 4 Ruin IVs over the full 2 min cycle, a Bio natural refresh, and within 30 seconds of window, Egi-Assaults. New SMN does this same thing at 3 decision points per minute of you choosing Ifrit, Garuda, or Titan, Ruin IV/Swiftcast use, and even within Ifrit and Garuda as each has something requiring a cast (1 for Garuda, 2 for Ifrit) and the other choice that consist of instant casts (gap closer/slam for Ifrit are both instant and Garuda's Gemshines are instant), and for Ifrit specifically, depending on if movement is needed (gapcloser/slam allows movement) or if disengage is needed (Gemshine at range where charge/slam is obviously not). So even WITHIN the sub-phases, there's choice on how you order your rotation.

And this is literally like day and night between these two jobs. You try to make as if they work on the same principle but that's just false argument. I played enough of both versions to know how both works.

New SMN is fine, the problem is that Old SMN was removed from the game. They were/are both good Jobs in their own rights, and I genuinely wish they would have taken Old SMN's rotation and ported it to Green Mage or something, add a new Caster Job so that both Old SMN and New SMN would exist side by side. That'd honestly be my preference. Egi-Assaults were just two flavors of GCD, so they didn't exactly REQUIRE a pet, old Bahamut worked somewhat like old Hypercharge/Wildfire with you slamming everything you could into his window of action, and both FBT and DWT made your filler spell instant and refreshed a key oGCD (Tri-Disaster to oGCD apply both your DoTs). Not one of those things REQUIRES a pet or summon function, so converting that into Green Mage would have been thematic child's play. Free fourth Caster Job and I still have no idea why the Devs didn't do it, considering Old SMN ALREADY adhered to the 2 min meta, so the Kit itself would transfer perfectly fine into EW...

The rework IS NOT ALRIGHT. It has a serious problem with the rigidity of the rotation and how braindead it is.
Even if all this talk about old and new SMN is gone, it doesn’t change the fact EW SMN is very underwhelming at its core and need serious changes to be a job that has a proper skill floor entry for new players and a good skill ceiling for players to improve within the job.

[Renathras]

...

I suppose I can give you ONE more reply before I exit:

1) Old SMN had "a set amount of spells you can cast", too. You only have so many GCDs in a minute/encounter (if you're talking about rate/number of spell casts). Old SMN couldn't magically get more. Likewise, Old SMN didn't have an infinite number of abilities (in case you meant there was no limit on how many it could cast), and many of those had CDs attached preventing endless use of them; it also had a finite spellbook itself, even if it was larger. Like Old SMN, New SMN can alter its spell cast order to try and optimize situations. The optimization IS LESS, but it's NOT zero.

2) I'm not "bending the term". You "won't bother" because you don't have a counter but are trying to dodge without having to address that your original point was indefensible. No, I didn't "know what you meant". Your description of what "meaningful choice" would be was a toggle, and my point that literally no Job in the game has that is accurate and something you couldn't counter. It's possible the Devs COULD add that in the future (for example, giving RDM a toggle to where melee strikes built up Mana instead of consuming it, so you used a melee playstyle instead of a caster one), but at present, that doesn't exist in any form, for any Job, in the current combat system/model that FFXIV has. I'm stating what I meant by the term AND how NO JOB meets your extremely specific example, and further, how New SMN meets it as well as most other Jobs (the ones that do have flex/choice, anyway). When someone says they won't engage a position, it's almost always because they CAN'T defeat it and are trying to save face/gracefully decline admitting they don't have a counter to it.

3) See 2. Also, so you know, saying something isn't true but not providing an argument for why isn't an argument, and likely isn't a statement of fact.

4) This was just as true of Old SMN, then. "Oh, you rarely need more than a single Swiftcast worth of movement". Okay then, you just defeated your entire argument that Old SMN was fantastic in this respect by saying it literally never matters.

5) I also played "enough of both" to know how they work. It's not a "night and day" argument - as shown by your inability to actually offer a counter to it. I actually explained in depth HOW they were similar, while you gave no explanation for how they were not. No, they are not "night and day" different. They are similar, but New SMN is a much more limited/toned down variation on the theme. In other words: Exactly what I argued above.

6) The rework is QUITE ALRIGHT. It has no serious problem with rigidity, and it's neither braindead nor would that be a problem even if it were. EW SMN is very satisfying and fun to play at its core, and needs no serious changes. Not every Job needs to have a high skill ceiling (or low skill floor, for that matter). Your complains are hyperbolic and misguided. You liked Old SMN and want New SMN to be turned into Old SMN. That's not an argument against New SMN, it's an argument against removing Old SMN from the game - a position I actually do agree with - and lashing out at New SMN as the misplaced target of your ire.

Which is why, of course, I can't convince you otherwise, and won't try further.

You're mad because a thing you liked was taken away, so you're making hyperbolic and ridiculous arguments against something new that is, in vacuum/on its own, perfectly fine. Instead of admitting it's fine, it's just not what you like, you're trying to insist that it isn't fine itself, when it actually is.

But, again, I won't press further, since there's no way I can convince you to realize that, and there's no point in even trying.

[tearagion]

The rework is QUITE ALRIGHT. It has no serious problem with rigidity, and it's neither braindead nor would that be a problem even if it were. EW SMN is very satisfying and fun to play at its core, and needs no serious changes.

alright this guy has to be taking the piss at this point

[Dahlinea]

Lots of nonsense

1) On Old SMN you're not forced to instacast spells on down times like you're with the new one. You were also not heavily punished if you held Bahamut/Phoenix for some seconds while using the basic spells to sustain your DPS.

2) You're bending them indeed. I won't bother because you're on this agenda of blindingly defending this new SMN as good job with depth when even people that like the changes know the job has little to no depth and need more complexity.

3) You're just desperate at this point.

4 and 5) You just tossed the spells and time windows of old SMN there champ. That's not saying how the job works at all. And they both plays like night and day alright you can't even compare the level of complexity and the ways to adapt of old SMN with this new one. Also, wanna do a fair comparison? Lower your pristine EW SMN to LV80 and compare it with ShB SMN... You've made a comparison of a LV90 job with a Lv80 job, in which ShB SMN already had better flexibility, imagine EW SMN at LV80.

6) The rework IS NOT ALRIGHT. Get real.


I don't need you to convince me of anything because all your arguments points towards a blind take on new SMN and someone that haven't played old SMN well enough, given your very flawed attempts on trying to put both versions on the same level of gameplay.

EDIT: And just to finish this argument on my part.

1) The Job works - it does good DPS, and has both party buffs and Raise utility that make it viable in all content, including double Caster clears of the hardest fights in the game.

2) The Job is understandable - it doesn't require someone to be a theorycrafter just to figure out what they should be doing, and the progression is understandable from level 1 to level 90, so players can understand and effectively make use of the new skills they get as they level.

3) The Job isn't clunky - its systems all work and are effective at what they do. Really the only at all clunky thing is using Carby's shield, and Carby should be doing SOMETHING else (Ruin 2 instant casts or something), but the rest of the kit is what's on the tin, and that's fine.

1) Because "it just works" doesn't mean the job is fine at all, especially when they have no depth.
2) It doesn't require theorycraft around it because you don't have means to improve the rotation.
3) The system is not clunky because the summons/pets abilities were handed down to SMN. The result is now we playing like a Blue Mage of sorts that just works... Would be nice having the summons on field instead, without auto-attacking but responding to our commands, but now our pet is basically a dummy with one personal support skill and we play Blue Mage with their meaningful skills.