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  1. #11
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    2,747
    Character
    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Dahlinea View Post
    "Meaningful choices that matter" would be for example, by considering the situation in a certain point in the battle, you're safe to use long casts then you decide to summon Ifrit and casts his Gemshine spells
    ...is quite literally how it works. Not "for as long as you see fit", but there aren't any Jobs that work that way that I'm aware of. There's no situation where BLM uses constant Scathes but only decides to use cast time spells when the situation allows standing still for extensive amounts of time and can decide between the two "for as long as you see fit" (Triplecast/Swiftcast are CDs that aren't up all the time and aren't toggles). RDM can't decide to just use melee attacks only and still do decent damage.

    SCH is really the only case of this in that they can, in theory, spam Ruin 2 for an entire fight if they need to for the movement, at an ability cost no greater than Broil IV (MP wise), but the cost in lost damage is significant and so it's not really VIABLE.

    Generally speaking, "meaningful choices" are short term ones. BLM choosing when to use a charge of Triplecast (in theory; when they aren't using it only for burst), PLD choosing when to use Holy Spirit in cases where there will be a forced disengage before they get to Royal Authority again but not RIGHT when they gain Divine Might; or even the ability to take a relatively minor 30 potency loss to hardcast Holy Spirit if they have an extended disengage (rare though those may be) or needs a bit more sustain/healing (which PLD can also address with Clemency in a REAL pinch).

    In fact, it's REALLY rare for them to be available at any time. PLD being able to hardcast Holy Spirit is a rare exception, though it IS limited by MP. Contrast NIN which can use Mudras for disengage, but is limited much more heavily by charges, or WAR/DRK/GNB using Tomahawk/Unmend/Lightning Shot which are all a given while they're forced to disengage but not an actual choice to use at any other time - there's no time in melee that a WAR choosing to use Tomahawk can argue he made the right move nor him spamming his Fell Cleave button and doing nothing if at 10 yards for a disengage can argue he's doing the right thing. On the other hand, there are times a PLD using Holy Spirit in melee if a Healer is down and the other Healer is hardcasting a Raise on them can be argued to be viable, and likewise, a PLD at range choosing to use a second Holy Spirit to make dealing with some mechanic easier for the party can be a debateably correct choice in some situations as well.

    RDM can use Enchanted Reprise as a movement tool, though it's almost always the wrong decision because Acceleration exists, and carries a cost that doesn't allow it to be a long-term viable solution like a mode toggle you propose would.

    It's VERY rare for Jobs to have a permanent toggle or permanently available option to change things up like you suggest, and the few that kind of exist all have fairly substantial costs to using them.

    These create some level of choice in how the rotation is played out.

    .

    Contrast BRD procs like Straighter Shot Ready. You need to burn it before it overcaps and it does more damage than Heavy Shot. It also has the same cost to use as Heavy Shot, a single GCD. Neither have a resource cost associated with them (like MP or TP), so there's no negative to using Straight Shot over Heavy Shot. It's always the right choice outside of some minuscule damage increasing niche optimization case like if Straighter Shot procs JUUUUST before a burst phase - 2-3 GCDs from the burst phase - where you don't want to use it RIGHT away and might justify holding off for 1-2 GCDs before using it. But even then, there is a non-zero probability that it would have proced a second time, and two out of buff Straight Shots do more damage than one buffed Straight Shot will, so even then it's a gamble to hold it, making the general use a viable option. And the choice only even comes down in that specific niche situation.

    BRD Bloodletter procs vs MCH's guaranteed 1/2 CD reduction to Gauss Round and Ricochet. One is reliable while the other is a crap shoot - but a crap shoot that doesn't change your gameplay.

    You aren't giving a "meaningful choice that matters". You're giving an example of optimal gameplay, which isn't a choice. In your above example, it would never be a meaningful choice to choose Garduda during low movement phases because it would (presumably) be suboptimal to using Ifrit, and likewise, for movent, using Ifrit wouldn't be a choice at all.

    Also, the last sentence of your first paragraph isn't even right: "Also 'meaningful choices that matter' means that if you choose another approach to the rotation the result will be different" - use Garuda on SMN during high movement. Now use Ifrit on SMN during high movement. Tell me you didn't get a different result.

    Contrast Old PLD with New PLD. Old PLD's rotation was hyper-rigid and there was only one real choice in the entire thing, which is if you drop an Atonement from your FIRST or SECOND set of Atonement for that melee phase cycle. Riviting.

    SMN is a special case since Old SMN and New SMN both had/have this feature going for them. Old SMN had several GCD instants it could move around flexibly, like 4 Ruin IVs over the full 2 min cycle, a Bio natural refresh, and within 30 seconds of window, Egi-Assaults. New SMN does this same thing at 3 decision points per minute of you choosing Ifrit, Garuda, or Titan, Ruin IV/Swiftcast use, and even within Ifrit and Garuda as each has something requiring a cast (1 for Garuda, 2 for Ifrit) and the other choice that consist of instant casts (gap closer/slam for Ifrit are both instant and Garuda's Gemshines are instant), and for Ifrit specifically, depending on if movement is needed (gapcloser/slam allows movement) or if disengage is needed (Gemshine at range where charge/slam is obviously not). So even WITHIN the sub-phases, there's choice on how you order your rotation.

    Thus New SMN is fantastic at this, but Old SMN was also fantastic at this, and your post is representative of the kind of Chicken Little/sky is falling hyperbole that plagues serious discussions on these topics. New SMN still has meaningful choice, you just don't like how the choice is presented and works. New SMN has several oGCDs, you just don't like that they're used in the ways that they are (ED on CD, Titan Astral Flow after each Gemshine, and both Astral Flow and Enkindle put in Demi phsaes forburst).

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    New SMN is fine, the problem is that Old SMN was removed from the game. They were/are both good Jobs in their own rights, and I genuinely wish they would have taken Old SMN's rotation and ported it to Green Mage or something, add a new Caster Job so that both Old SMN and New SMN would exist side by side. That'd honestly be my preference. Egi-Assaults were just two flavors of GCD, so they didn't exactly REQUIRE a pet, old Bahamut worked somewhat like old Hypercharge/Wildfire with you slamming everything you could into his window of action, and both FBT and DWT made your filler spell instant and refreshed a key oGCD (Tri-Disaster to oGCD apply both your DoTs). Not one of those things REQUIRES a pet or summon function, so converting that into Green Mage would have been thematic child's play. Free fourth Caster Job and I still have no idea why the Devs didn't do it, considering Old SMN ALREADY adhered to the 2 min meta, so the Kit itself would transfer perfectly fine into EW...

    .

    Meaningful choice, to me, is options to slightly alter your rotation to better match a fight mechanic or flex to a party strategy. In this sense, New SMN has that going for it, as does New PLD. Old PLD did not, but Old SMN actually had that going for it as well.

    .

    EDIT: You may, of course, believe what you wish. I'll not try to dissuade you. But when you comment on what I'm saying, this is my explanation.
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    Last edited by Renathras; 03-05-2023 at 10:55 AM. Reason: EDIT for space