Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Valence]

The only reason I still stick to rphys is because I like the gameplay of its classes that remain true to its original premise (proc based, priority, freeform-ish), and which is also why I dumped my favorite job of all times to the dumpsterfire where it belongs (mch). I tried melees but they're not my cup of tea. Casters as well, don't interest me the slightest. Yet I am consigned into not playing a dps role, but a 1% party bonus role.

These two are functionally the same thing. It's about your spatial position on the map. Otherwise we'd be playing a text-based game with combo buttons.

I don't think we had the same idea of what movement refers to, but then I'll clarify and say that in my mind, it means dynamic motions where the focus is on the spatial translation. Positioning implies a focus on where to stand.

Both are tied, but they're not the same to me. A gameplay that asks me to constantly jump all around like a bunny, I don't want to. Melees can have it if it makes them happy, that was the whole point of positionals. A gameplay that asks me to go here or there for specific purposes, like solving mechanics (fight related), or to trigger melee (like on old DNC), it interests me already more. I'd even shove in the latter the old AoE patterns we had on MNK and some other jobs, where you constantly had to adjust the positioning of the character to adjust to the pack of enemies, whereas positionals are just an artificial mechanic to generate motion for no real purpose.

If we both have the idea that motions for a clear, non artificial purpose are good and desired, but that motions for the sake of moving are not desirable, then we're in agreement though. As I said above, as a rphys player I'd actually like having to move a little more, and I do feel that most of those jobs could benefit from some melee or mid range skills for example, which are only for AoE currently. Could even get inspired from pvp and have the occasional skill (not your damn filler mind you) that is affected by range, but this would need a better UI and indicators to not be a pain.

[Lyth]

...

Sure, let me clarify.

In a traditional 'trinity' design, tanks are designed to either proactively or reactively reposition the boss in order to ensure that the party can continue to safely and efficiently do damage. Sometimes this is by moving a boss out of hazards, and sometimes this is by repositioning the boss in a way that lets players swap off of another target back to the boss without losing uptime. As dps players, part of your skill is in anticipating how your tank will act (including in cases where you're teamed with an inconsistent tank) and positioning yourself in a way that maximizes uptime. This sort of fight design reached its peak in Heavensward but doesn't really exist anymore because the inherited game code has problems with snapshotting and executing boss actions.

In an ARPG design, you have little to no control over boss movement, but you rely on animation tells to make predictions about how to position yourself to optimize your damage output. It's still all about anticipation, but you're less reliant on having a consistent and competent tank to guide movement. As melee, that may mean that you know the exact second when the boss rotates to perform an action which may mess up a positional, or as ranged it may mean that you've identified the one pixel that you can stand in that let's you cast through the next two mechanics. If you want to push the player harder with this type of design, then you need more complex timings from the boss. And to be able to respond to that, you need the player to have access to more movement tools that let them reposition in subtle ways without having to stop performing actions.

The problem at the moment is that FFXIV is straddling these two fight design styles. If the former was the chosen approach I would go back to tanking in a heartbeat, because that's what I enjoyed about the role. If it's the latter, I'm probably going to enjoy melee the most. The problem is that you have such long periods of downtime between mechanics when you're just unloading into the boss, such that all roles feel equally underwhelming. This is why I think that a lot of the frustration comes down to fight design. If you can comfortably reduce a scenario down to target dummy conditions in your head, you've solved the fight. Rotational changes aren't going to fix this. Movement actions open up possibilities for more uptime, which in turn lets you push the player harder to maintain it.

[Valence]

Sure, let me clarify.

That's an interesting perspective. Personally I hate the ARPG model and it probably makes me of another time those days (this is probably why I hate all the combat systems of modern FF games with no exception), but well... I guess it'll boil down harder to a matter of tastes on that point. I personally thing that the game code is way more suited to the former than the latter though. It feels awful when the boss turns or moves out of position when you need to be tactically positioned for your rotation to work, but when it's about the tank or your team it's something that you can control and work upon as teamplay. When it's the boss without any warning, it gets really annoying at times.

Yeah, I actually kinda miss the tank defensive positionals of HW, where being hit in the back increased damaged and crits. Maybe it wasn't perfect, but tactically it was fun (accuracy wasnt though).