Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Rithy255]

Jobs should have more variety in simple vs complicated, It's fine to have Jobs that are easier to play it's fine to have Jobs that are harder to play, I think the issue is that being "busy" doesn't mean difficulty when a lot Jobs designs are needlessly busy in the 120 minute windows, but outside of that they're just pressing a 1, 2, 3 filler.

I even think variety extends beyond rotations, I don't think Jobs should just only serve a purpose of being there to bring a slightly different rotation and cosmetic look, at least I would enjoy something that brings new options or something else.. But It feels like even expecting a Job with at least a nice rotation feels like I'm expecting too much. Raid buffs aren't even interesting you just click this 120 buff and yay. I don't think the current raid buff system works in favour of making jobs stand out unless they're Bard, Dragoon, dancer or Astro.

With Tanks & Healers, They should all stand out with utility kits especially, It's sort of there? (like some small differences?) but I feel like 7.0 will likely make things even closer then they are.. Paladin/Dark knight will likely be more inline with the other tanks in kit (Which some aspects of their kits such as Cover on PLD I don't mind changing), While something like Astro I', genuinely worried if it will be reworked into something that's easier I love Astro it's the only healer I like to play in casual content. Because it stands out, it feel active.

What I want is More interactive gameplay, Paladin for example should have more ways to interact with it's gauge, I hope healers like white mage have I don't know more damage buttons or something? Melee DPS should get a semi "support", Raid buffs should be more Unique to jobs instead of this boring ability you press every 2 minutes... Jobs in general should have some skill to learn while being welcoming to new players, I don't want to be afraid of balance changes or some forms of making a job more balanced, but balancing to ruin the purpose of a job and just making it like every other makes the job feel pointless to me.

[Valence]

The only reason I still stick to rphys is because I like the gameplay of its classes that remain true to its original premise (proc based, priority, freeform-ish), and which is also why I dumped my favorite job of all times to the dumpsterfire where it belongs (mch). I tried melees but they're not my cup of tea. Casters as well, don't interest me the slightest. Yet I am consigned into not playing a dps role, but a 1% party bonus role.

These two are functionally the same thing. It's about your spatial position on the map. Otherwise we'd be playing a text-based game with combo buttons.

I don't think we had the same idea of what movement refers to, but then I'll clarify and say that in my mind, it means dynamic motions where the focus is on the spatial translation. Positioning implies a focus on where to stand.

Both are tied, but they're not the same to me. A gameplay that asks me to constantly jump all around like a bunny, I don't want to. Melees can have it if it makes them happy, that was the whole point of positionals. A gameplay that asks me to go here or there for specific purposes, like solving mechanics (fight related), or to trigger melee (like on old DNC), it interests me already more. I'd even shove in the latter the old AoE patterns we had on MNK and some other jobs, where you constantly had to adjust the positioning of the character to adjust to the pack of enemies, whereas positionals are just an artificial mechanic to generate motion for no real purpose.

If we both have the idea that motions for a clear, non artificial purpose are good and desired, but that motions for the sake of moving are not desirable, then we're in agreement though. As I said above, as a rphys player I'd actually like having to move a little more, and I do feel that most of those jobs could benefit from some melee or mid range skills for example, which are only for AoE currently. Could even get inspired from pvp and have the occasional skill (not your damn filler mind you) that is affected by range, but this would need a better UI and indicators to not be a pain.

[Lyth]

...

Sure, let me clarify.

In a traditional 'trinity' design, tanks are designed to either proactively or reactively reposition the boss in order to ensure that the party can continue to safely and efficiently do damage. Sometimes this is by moving a boss out of hazards, and sometimes this is by repositioning the boss in a way that lets players swap off of another target back to the boss without losing uptime. As dps players, part of your skill is in anticipating how your tank will act (including in cases where you're teamed with an inconsistent tank) and positioning yourself in a way that maximizes uptime. This sort of fight design reached its peak in Heavensward but doesn't really exist anymore because the inherited game code has problems with snapshotting and executing boss actions.

In an ARPG design, you have little to no control over boss movement, but you rely on animation tells to make predictions about how to position yourself to optimize your damage output. It's still all about anticipation, but you're less reliant on having a consistent and competent tank to guide movement. As melee, that may mean that you know the exact second when the boss rotates to perform an action which may mess up a positional, or as ranged it may mean that you've identified the one pixel that you can stand in that let's you cast through the next two mechanics. If you want to push the player harder with this type of design, then you need more complex timings from the boss. And to be able to respond to that, you need the player to have access to more movement tools that let them reposition in subtle ways without having to stop performing actions.

The problem at the moment is that FFXIV is straddling these two fight design styles. If the former was the chosen approach I would go back to tanking in a heartbeat, because that's what I enjoyed about the role. If it's the latter, I'm probably going to enjoy melee the most. The problem is that you have such long periods of downtime between mechanics when you're just unloading into the boss, such that all roles feel equally underwhelming. This is why I think that a lot of the frustration comes down to fight design. If you can comfortably reduce a scenario down to target dummy conditions in your head, you've solved the fight. Rotational changes aren't going to fix this. Movement actions open up possibilities for more uptime, which in turn lets you push the player harder to maintain it.

[Valence]

Sure, let me clarify.

That's an interesting perspective. Personally I hate the ARPG model and it probably makes me of another time those days (this is probably why I hate all the combat systems of modern FF games with no exception), but well... I guess it'll boil down harder to a matter of tastes on that point. I personally thing that the game code is way more suited to the former than the latter though. It feels awful when the boss turns or moves out of position when you need to be tactically positioned for your rotation to work, but when it's about the tank or your team it's something that you can control and work upon as teamplay. When it's the boss without any warning, it gets really annoying at times.

Yeah, I actually kinda miss the tank defensive positionals of HW, where being hit in the back increased damaged and crits. Maybe it wasn't perfect, but tactically it was fun (accuracy wasnt though).

[Valence]

I think the issue is that being "busy" doesn't mean difficulty when a lot Jobs designs are needlessly busy in the 120 minute windows, but outside of that they're just pressing a 1, 2, 3 filler.

I even think variety extends beyond rotations, I don't think Jobs should just only serve a purpose of being there to bring a slightly different rotation and cosmetic look, at least I would enjoy something that brings new options or something else.. But It feels like even expecting a Job with at least a nice rotation feels like I'm expecting too much. Raid buffs aren't even interesting you just click this 120 buff and yay. I don't think the current raid buff system works in favour of making jobs stand out unless they're Bard, Dragoon, dancer or Astro.

DPS jobs have always managed more or less to keep a relatively unique structure to them, although some definitely share some core traits, but for tanks and healers it's always been a problem and it's not something especially new that came magically and recently.

WhM and SCH were two very different healers since the dawn of time, and when AST got released, in spite of having the dual sect option, it still shared most of its core toolkit with WhM, where every heal could be replaced with the ones from the other almost 1:1 except for the few OGCDs they had. Tanks have shared the same core basic combo branches since day one with some flavor sprinkled on top. They all had the power combo and the aggro combo, with a dot branch and/or a buff/debuff branch. Like healers, the core was utterly the same thing, and the flavor was located on the additional toolkit, and this hasn't changed much. The introduction of DRK and GNB doesn't break the pattern, and SGE is just another SCH in disguise with a different flavor.

On raid buffs, it's been an actual peeve of mine. We used to have a lot of them being unique and interesting, like Foe Requiem that lasted as long as the BRD had MP remaining (or could be shut down on demand). It actually brought a ton of party teamplay and planning, and a good bard player could adjust when to use it to match other buffs. Hypercharge was cd based but could apply on both turret modes (damage or mp regen), and battle voice also applied on manasong (and now it's just one of those extremely hollow raid buffs on cd). This is what rphys used to be about, compared to the support boredom we have now.

( Make us use our MP pools again damnit )

I am okay with the new Radiant Finale that actually requires more than just a cooldown, but they could do away with the actual cooldown that serve literally no purpose but to make it rigid without any need. I am okay with devilment because it's not just a +X% damage generic raid buff. But as far as the rest goes? It's bland.

[Rithy255]

My main issue is Melee DPS, on the surface they're "pretty" different and even have different rotations when you consider something like Monk vs Dragoon, but i Just find them really? Uninteresting in what they bring to the table and actual differences in playstyle.. This is beyond the fact that fights were designed around melees having super easy uptime, where unique Jobs like Ninja having a really short raid buff was interesting to me, The ranged uptime it could get was interesting, now it feels like those aspects don't really matter, think 1. Making range more value again, it was a mistake to give melees practically no struggles with uptime 2. Make a melee that's maybe just totally different from the others... Maybe even a proc based slightly RNG melee would be pretty cool.

Casters & Phys ranged, are actually generally pretty well designed and varied all things considered, I do think SMN/RDM should be slightly higher, especially RDM, BLM should be above current melees, but in general they feel so vastly different to me compared to melees despite there being 5. With Phys ranged, you got nice support elements and completely varied rotations, that feel totally different from one another at least I think something like a Machinist vs Dancer they both play so differently to any melee vs each other, on top of adding small utilities to the party.


With Tanks & Healers, Tanks generally are in a slightly better state (from my perspective), but their needs to be more Varity Shadowbringers warrior was really fun for me, despite being a "ez" job I loved the way it's Short CD were two separate abilities both with good use cases, I also liked having more then one thing tied to gauge. Paladin Is a example of a tank that could be made into something more interesting with a "defensive gauge" having more useable utilities, Dark Knight could stand out again as a "risk vs reward" tank.

Healers Like Astro vs white mage, they both feel totally different to play, I also agree that sage/scholar are basically the same job, I honestly think scholars just outright a better job due to speed boost. but yeah I can't say either one stand out to me. 7.0 should revamp healers.

I think raid buffs are mainly interesting when they interact with the jobs core gameplay or theirs a choice, targetable raid buffs such as astro cards feel interactive (Despite being made simple over time), You actively have cards that will benefit more with picking the right person at the right time, it's not a 120 raid buff that you press and forget about. I think while you make a good point about physical ranged being made more boring and less supportive is a good point, though I feel like Phys ranged will still be more interesting then melees ever could hope to be currently... That being said I like the idea of bard (phys ranged in general) being more active with it's supportive buffs.

[Valence]

That's the problem with melees in general, their additional job unique tools make them unique, but their base combo patterns are all similar, and while it's not on the level of healers with their gcd heals, it's not that far off. I'm also all for more proc based jobs in general. Combos are unappealing, especially with so little or no branches those days. Could just replace them with a single pvp button to reduce bloat and add new fun toys, and we would be better already.


Casters are very diverse yes, and that's good. SMN however, has suffered from the sqenix axe of butchering that MCH went through the past expansion because apparently it's easier to redesign from scratch than fix what's broken, especially when redesigning from scratch is intended to stay at a level so basic that it's literally braindead (SMN) or bland (MCH). Rphys are different from each other, yes and no, because BRD and DNC are actually very similar jobs when it comes to how their bursts play out. Fortunately, their job mechanics are different enough to keep them apart (mostly due to the very unique bard song system). MCH is a travesty and I don't even want to get into how bad and nonsensical that design is.

On mitigation, I'll admit that the recent buffs were truly needed for rphys and I actually appreciate this. However, unlike in the past, everybody and their mothers have mitigation to bring to the party (even melees and casters with addle-feint, and addle-feint is good on a short cd). Tanks and healers now all have a crapload of party wide mitigation tools as well, and RDM even has magick barrier. It's stopped for two expansions to be the relatively exclusive realm of rphys to bring that kind of party support, and while I think it's a good thing that everybody has to chime in when it comes to mitigation, it also removed one of the fundamental aspects that made rphys unique.

[Mikey_R]

That's the problem with melees in general, their additional job unique tools make them unique, but their base combo patterns are all similar, and while it's not on the level of healers with their gcd heals, it's not that far off. I'm also all for more proc based jobs in general. Combos are unappealing, especially with so little or no branches those days. Could just replace them with a single pvp button to reduce bloat and add new fun toys, and we would be better already.

I hope you aren't advocating for every job to be proc based? If you are, then you need to realise that there are players out there that do enjoy the more rigid combos, so yo uneed options for both.

[VentVanitas]

That's the problem with melees in general, their additional job unique tools make them unique, but their base combo patterns are all similar, and while it's not on the level of healers with their gcd heals, it's not that far off. I'm also all for more proc based jobs in general. Combos are unappealing, especially with so little or no branches those days. Could just replace them with a single pvp button to reduce bloat and add new fun toys, and we would be better already.

Don't touch my MNK combos, thanks.

It has the opposite problem actually. The fundamental structure of the job in its GCD loop is the most unique thing it has while its other aspects like Chakra and Blitz... not so much. Normally, I would count other things such as Six Sided Star but uses for it in EW so far have been very scarce outside of the typical "last attack before boss goes intangible/is dead."

[Valence]

I hope you aren't advocating for every job to be proc based? If you are, then you need to realise that there are players out there that do enjoy the more rigid combos, so yo uneed options for both.

I actually am not, and yes I know a lot of players that like the predictable nature of jobs and can't deal with those that are not.

I am actually advocating for more and more varied base filler systems, even though personally I dislike base combos. So far the game mostly runs on three types:

- Standard combos, some have branches, some don't. You essentially press a button, the next one lights up with 100% chance.
- Procs. Some have a chance to proc from the first skill of a combo (GCDs like refulgent arrow, RDM spells, DNC combos, etc), some have a chance to proc from job mechanics (OGCDs usually, and the most interesting and creative ones imo).
- Freeform. MNK is such an example, and SMN/BLM is also one. I like the freeform category because no matter the job, that base is very unique to them and follow unique mechanics.

Don't touch my MNK combos, thanks.

It has the opposite problem actually. The fundamental structure of the job in its GCD loop is the most unique thing it has while its other aspects like Chakra and Blitz... not so much. Normally, I would count other things such as Six Sided Star but uses for it in EW so far have been very scarce outside of the typical "last attack before boss goes intangible/is dead."

Yeah MNK combos are more freeform and not standard combos, so that's different. And I actually like blitz for the simple reason that it actually feels unique to me. Maybe it's not that far off from mudras yeah, but it still uses the base GCD combo as parts (unlike mudras) and in a unique freeform way. It actually makes the job rather complicated when you want to fully optimize and provides very high skill ceiling, which is probably a good thing for players that like that sort of thing?