Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Sqwall]

The counterargument to support it? Complex Job rotations restricts Fight designs and mechanics. And I disagree...

Giving up Job gameplay/flavor/uniqueness...

• Simplify every combo
• Do away with every pet
• Kill Dots, to hard for the Dev's to manage
• Resource management dumbed down
• All AoE's become a Circle
• Reduce buttons cause Button bloat
• Remove Positionals
• Take the 2 min buffs and choke on it

Simplify-Homogenize-Rework-Optimize...
To the point jobs and their gameplay become unrecognizable. In exchange for the empty promise of better unique harder fight designs. Right...

I don't know man....I keep thinking of P8S Phase1 and Phase 2....

Picture the Heavensward rotation and job design during that fight....and all I can think of is that fight would be just a boring Savage. The complexity of the fight would need to be dumbed down just so average players could even finish it. If you had an overly complex rotation and niche style gameplay it would seriously hamper the impeccable design of P8S...

I just don't know...that fight is ALMOST (not quite) touching Ultimate level mechanics. I would hate to see the fight become just less intense due to job design holding it back...it's incredibly tightly tuned....almost zero room for error...

I would MUCH rather have more interesting and difficult challenges then a job that is designed to be complex...just to be complex.

The encounter should be the obstacle....not the job getting in the way. I still have fun on WAR and PLD. Even though everyone thinks they are the exact same now...I feel the strategies that come with each compliment their play styles.
Inner Release doubling as an anti knock back during Centaur 1....or...
Blade Combo allowing me to position better during Four Fold Flames and Centaur 1 so that I can keep uptime.
Holmgang being used 2 times in phase 2 for the tank buster.

There are definite differences in the jobs and applications for certain fight mechanics...but not one can outshine the other. Speaking specifically about tanks...I can and HAVE run different tanks for a lot of fights. Each tank has a little to offer to each fight...no not one tank outshines the other.

[CelestiCer]

I don't know man....I keep thinking of P8S Phase1 and Phase 2....

I disagree. If I apply at least Kaiten Samurai vs no Kaiten Samurai? I see no issue with any content atm available. But they could give way more then just that to other Jobs as well. I don't find P8S difficult, although week 1 it probably was. Not to mention that you said " not one tank outshines the other " ... well Statistically that's not true? specially not in Week 1 and that might also not be true currently in The Omega Protocol Ultimate.

Raiding makes up 5% of the game.
95% of all other PvE Combat activities has now become dull to me. Where as I enjoyed MSQ? I just skip it now. Fates? I stopped farming. Dungeons? I used to spam it, now I wanna skip it. My Job used to be way more fun and I know there are other players who felt like this for a long time about other jobs they main. You can throw the most difficult content at me... even P8S that you find so difficult? It's boring because my Job feels hollow. And that I have to get my excitement at Ultimate on strict hours, scheduled prog, joined Statics and etc etc. The good ol " Go play Ultimate ". I much rather have my Job be fun around any corner? vs dull and boring, but at least I get to do mechanics.

The only reason for me to raid is ...helpers high. The satisfaction of helping that's it.

[tearagion]

I don't know man....I keep thinking of P8S Phase1 and Phase 2....

Picture the Heavensward rotation and job design during that fight....and all I can think of is that fight would be just a boring Savage. The complexity of the fight would need to be dumbed down just so average players could even finish it. If you had an overly complex rotation and niche style gameplay it would seriously hamper the impeccable design of P8S...

How does that track? These have been 2 of the easiest tiers since deltascape lol. Maybe p8s edges out Kefka, it's been a while. What is there in p8s that's remotely challenging? Subjective, sure, but they are definitely not leveraging this "extra complexity space" you claim exists.

The encounter should be the obstacle....not the job getting in the way.

If you see performing well on a complex job as an obstacle, your perspective is completely and entirely removed from that of people who enjoy complex jobs. It's not an obstacle, or a hinderance, or whatever, it's fun.

I figured this out when I realized how poorly MNK was designed from Heavensward to Endwalker after I tried out Red Mage. I literally couldn't' believe how well designed Red Mage was compared to Monk. If I could do just as much damage with considerably less effort...why the hell would I work harder????

job requires little player input and is fun to me = well designed. bravo lol

[Renathras]

...

You're pretty much right, though your view is not generally shared by the forums, so...but you're right. Especially about this:

I would MUCH rather have more interesting and difficult challenges then a job that is designed to be complex...just to be complex.

The encounter should be the obstacle....not the job getting in the way.

It's why I support the idea of different Jobs within a Role (no Role has less than three) having an easy/simple, medium (or two), and complex/hard Jobs in it. That way, people who want to run their faces through coals can choose to do so and those that don't want to do that and want Jobs that aren't nerfted and gimped and clunky to the point they barely even work can simply choose the other Jobs. Everyone wins.

EDIT:

Even by reading all post, I really struggle to find the past game more complex/deep other than more messy and tidious.

Can someone take some time to explain what they mean by "Simplification" ? Maybe we just disagree, or maybe we didn't talk about the same things.

It's honestly a lot of rose tinted glasses. For example, SB WHM had two DoTs instead of one, and they had awkward durations instead of the clean ones we have today. One was 15 or 18 sec and the other was 18 or 21, I don't remember which. It was frankly annoying. There was also Aero 3, but that was mostly used in AOE by people for a long time since it wasn't clear to people if it was a single target gain or not. WHM today still has the spam nuke and DoT, and traded Aero 3 for misery. So in effect, it lost one DoT and a lot of clunk. And don't get me started on SB's version of Lilies - they were not like today, they just reduced the CD of abilties used by 5% or something, and to generate them, you had to cast Cure 1/2 on targets. That was also true of Confession stacks from Plenary Indulgence. It made no sense at all. WHM in ShB was far better. SB WHM sucked so bad.

If you really really go far back into the past? apparently you have Bozja/Zadnor like skills that jobs used to have. Cleric Stance and really archaic designs.

Bozja/Zadnor recycle names, but not abilities. Cleric Stance didn't work the same at all. It was an annoying mechanic that swapped your MND and INT stats, and cut healing by 20% on top of that. So when you were in Cleric, you couldn't heal except for % healing effects like Benediction or (in ARR) SCH's Lustrate did a flat 25% heal and Eos's heals weren't affected by it. Nor was Stoneskin. So SCH's remember Cleric way more fondly because their kit actually kind of worked with it. Oh, and the best part was, it was a toggle and had something like a 5+ second before you could cancel it, meaning if you activated it and then the boss got a string of crits on the tank, you were just hammering Cure 2 and hammering Cleric so you could turn it off as soon as it was up so your Tank and party didn't wipe. And if you hammered it too much, you could accidentally reactivate it.

Cleric is the single most rose tinted goggles ability that I've ever seen in MMO history. Such a horribly bad ability that some people think was the height of Job design, it's ridiculous.