Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[addz3]

Homogenization is such a bad idea, what's the point in having 20+ jobs when the do the same thing as 5. Personally I'd like them to take the FFXI route a bit more, there's a reason why that game is still going strong. The reason behind making everything the same is so that nobody feels left out? Left out of what, high tier raiding groups? No disrespect but aren't they like 5% of the player base? Don't they play for the challenge rather than what job? Maybe just me but I don't care that my PLD may do 8% less damage as long as its true to an identity and becomes a brick wall. Warrior - go for it do you 10% extra damage than the other tanks but be a squashy piece of meat. That's my balancing. If some jobs fall off certain content, that's fine. Players can then just swap job to have a new experience. I feel they are really screwing this game by making it damage damage damage. Going back to FFXI that was a true role experience, they need to do that. I'd argue the majority of people play XIV for story and lore which includes role-playing not the weird stuff but getting in to character. Sword shield defender or an axe wielding maniac. It's all good.

[Renathras]

...to clear any content before Extreme difficulty.

This is the problem.

Extreme difficulty is the end-game content for most players. Savage raiders are a growing percent of the community (somewhere between 35-40%) because it's been made more accessible, but that's still a minority, while Ultimates are a minority of a minority. Extreme content is very likely the main endgame for something like 60-70% of the community. When you're proposing a change that affects that many people, it becomes a problem because - again - it isn't optional. As people constantly say, no matter how bad it's become for the game, damage is the only metric that counts. As long as at least one party member has at least 1 HP and the boss has died, any extra healing, mitigation, or utility is irrelevant (so people say), "damage is mitigation/healing because it prevents damage" (absurd in a realistic sense - you can't outdamage a boss before a party member on the verge of death is dead unless the boss is below 3-5%), etc etc.

In short, the community has decided damage IS NOT optional. Meaning any skill expression tied to damage, unless the gap between skill floor and skill ceiling damage is microscopic in % terms, isn't optional at all.

So that can't be how we allow skill expression in the game anymore, since the community has spoken and said that it isn't, in fact, optional, and never is, unless you're doing content with no Enrages, in which case Job balance and skill expression is arguably irrelevant.

To me:

The skill floor is the level of skill needed to reliably clear Extremes.

Anything less than that is irrelevant - a dipping bird on your keyboard with autorun going could clear it - and extremes are the majority of the community's end-game, either as an entry into Savage or as their stand-alone end-game source of weapons and replay-ability farming mounts. And so the "floor" is Extremes.

Thus damage is not optional in a realistic sense unless, again, the difference between floor and cap is vast and/or Extremes have ridiculously lax Enrages. (Granted, they have lately, so who knows? But you still have to have marginally competent players, even with Ex5 letting you blow a Healer LB3 [or possibly 2] and still make it. Seriously, Ex5's Enrage itself is actually appropriate, it's more a check of if your party can get at least one Healer through the stack/spread/cross/cleave/stack-spread combo and/or Limit Cut - if you can just get through all that, unless people are asleep at their keyboards, the DPS should be sufficient...but that's not always the case, as it wasn't in the earlier Extremes.)

Anyway, this is also why I'm a huge proponent of the "different complexity JOBS" (not skill floor vs ceiling) model. It's fine if a game has several easy classes, several moderate classes, and several hard classes. harder classes can be rewarded with feeling good about themselves, or possibly with non-damage utility stuff. But until the community decides to change its collective mind on the damage >>>> all thing, DAMAGE cannot be the thing hugely tied to skill ceilings, because it will NEVER be optional under that paradigm.

Homogenization is such a bad idea, what's the point in having 20+ jobs when the do the same thing as 5. Personally I'd like them to take the FFXI route a bit more, there's a reason why that game is still going strong. The reason behind making everything the same is so that nobody feels left out? Left out of what, high tier raiding groups? No disrespect but aren't they like 5% of the player base? Don't they play for the challenge rather than what job? Maybe just me but I don't care that my PLD may do 8% less damage as long as its true to an identity and becomes a brick wall. Warrior - go for it do you 10% extra damage than the other tanks but be a squashy piece of meat. That's my balancing. If some jobs fall off certain content, that's fine. Players can then just swap job to have a new experience. I feel they are really screwing this game by making it damage damage damage. Going back to FFXI that was a true role experience, they need to do that. I'd argue the majority of people play XIV for story and lore which includes role-playing not the weird stuff but getting in to character. Sword shield defender or an axe wielding maniac. It's all good.

Somewhat agreed. FFXI's Job design and identity are (largely) SO much better.

I think everything should be able to clear content in a general sense, but content should be tuned down to allow that, not Job identity. And there should be complex and intricate Jobs for people that want them, simple for those that want them, and a spectrum in between.

WHM is pretty simple (relatively speaking) while SCH is more complicated, but each are competent and functional, and it's up to the player what they like, with some in-between options available for people that want something in between.

There's no reason FFXIV can't do something like that - and the great irony is, it already did in its past, and in some cases, actually got it to work.

[Valence]

It's fine if a game has several easy classes, several moderate classes, and several hard classes.

I won't develop more on my thought pattern since CelestiCer already pretty much nailed it above for me. But this point in particular, I hate it. Like, I really hate it. It's already kind of what we get and it's literally what has RUINED rphys for the past two expansions.

I'm sure you'll find some players at the raiding end of the spectrum that never cared about job flair and aesthetics at all, and I know some of them, but that's not the case of most people: there is classes that I'm sure you love for their flair and feel more than others, and being shoved a braindead model down your throat on a job you love is one of the worst feeling I've had the displeasure to experience, and I've been wandering around looking for other jobs that 110% click with me since then with no real success. I'm pretty sure the opposite would also be true, where you're a player that struggles more with difficult rotations, and get shoved a complex model down their throat with little accessibility... Fortunately that latter case is less and less possible because accessibility of most jobs has been really eased over years (which is a good thing).

This alone is why not even entertaining the notion of skill floors and ceilings is a path to nonsense. I'm not saying that they should be a cardinal virtue in every design ever, but they're literally what makes your casual and hardcore players tick.

But until the community decides to change its collective mind on the damage >>>> all thing, DAMAGE cannot be the thing hugely tied to skill ceilings, because it will NEVER be optional under that paradigm.

See, the community really has a problem with the damage and performance mindset (fortunately nowhere yet near to WoW, but it's following the trend), especially in casual content where it's always about "carrying bad players" and "bad players wasting muh time", you'd literally be preaching to the choir here. But not tying your job performance and results to damage, especially at least on DPS jobs, is absolutely unrealistic and wishful. That's literally THE satisfaction you can take out of playing them well.

Well, at least that's the satisfaction I take out of them. Executing interesting and complex enough mechanics and witness the results.

If you were saying that healers should take satisfaction in a well planned or executed healing, or clutch saves, or whatever makes them tick, then I'd be inclined to agree. I don't play healers for their DPS rotations (especially in their current state lol). I know a lot of healers that enjoy healing, and when they meet some savage content, they're left flabbergasted by the lack of healing skill expression, where their kits are literally 90% about healing tools.

But that's not DPS jobs.

[CelestiCer]

To the points " Valence " made I agree.

Players tend to have a favorite Job they Main. Having said Job be ruined with changes/remakes? in gameplay, feel, flare, complexity, the Fantasy of its gameplay in a game called Final Fantasy, everything that made it Click and taking that away? is akin to killing the passion out of players. And somehow... this is viewed as being good for the game...

Lets say going 100 miles an hour is the Skill Ceiling. Do you need to go 100 miles to reach your destination in anything below Extreme? No... most content is not a race, but a stroll. No Deadlines. Just don't crash while you go 1 mile an hour. This is the The Skill-Floor. Slow? Sure, but that's the bar Square sets. Even in Ultimate the entire party doesn't' need to perfectly execute their Jobs at 100% percentile to clear it. What many players are asking is reaching 80 miles made exciting, that optional performance perhaps rewarded with tiny extra mile. And not through the Roads, but in what we pilot - " Our Jobs ", that makes every Road exciting and fun.


Players can demand the environment to be more hazardous as much as they want, sure. Once I dislike or have less fun piloting my Job however? The scenery becomes more and more irrelevant to me. Nothing is as fun anymore. And for many? Not as Fun as it used to be.

I wish to call it " Toxic-Casualism ", where any ounce of complexity is a ounce to much. In fear of ruining their... ugh... Guildhest? experience? Players already do not make full use of their Job's skill kit even in Savage let alone Dungeon roulettes. Having a tiny bit of Extra flare or flavor, is not going to hurt anyone.

But just like PF? many do not like " Seasoning ".

[Renathras]

I hope you aren't advocating for every job to be proc based? If you are, then you need to realise that there are players out there that do enjoy the more rigid combos, so yo uneed options for both.

This, I think, is the key:

Options for players.

And the "option" can't be "play this thing you hate the way you hate it OR be bad and either unable to clear content or dead weight on other people dragging you through it". That's not an "option". Besides, if everything's the same, people hate that. Homogenized classes is one of the most complained about things across all MMOs.

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Don't touch my MNK combos, thanks.

It has the opposite problem actually. The fundamental structure of the job in its GCD loop is the most unique thing it has while its other aspects like Chakra and Blitz... not so much. Normally, I would count other things such as Six Sided Star but uses for it in EW so far have been very scarce outside of the typical "last attack before boss goes intangible/is dead."

MNK is actually really fun just because of how different it is, but it's different in a way that is SMOOTH, not clunky or unnecessarily complex. Like, it's GCD filler rotation is, what, 21 GCDs long, but it just flows so well.

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MCH is a travesty and I don't even want to get into how bad and nonsensical that design is.

I feel like we just may disagree on things.

Like...I find MCH really fun. It's the ONLY Ranged that I like playing. BRD is frustrating with the feast or famine procs and priority system being all over the place, and DNC.......I just hate DNC with a passion.

MCH, on the other hand? The Job is fun, abilities feel impactful, there's a priority system but it's pretty understandable and feels good to execute, the burst feels satisfying and high paced, and the base rotation is there for any time you'd otherwise have less to do or be bored. It just works on so many levels. It's easily the best designed Ranged in the game right now now that Hypercharge has a charge system.

I'd even say MCH is the ONLY good Ranged Job in the game right now in terms of play and feel. It's the only one that I at all enjoy. The others I'm leveling in Frontlines because of how much I dislike them.

I'd say this is a case of "Understand what what you like is not universal, and some things need to be made that you won't like to appeal to others". I have no problem with BRD and DNC being Jobs I don't like, even though archer is one of my favorite class fantasy/archetypes in gaming and the fantasy genre. But BRD in this game is for players that aren't me. MCH is more for players like me. Everyone wins.

It's already kind of what we get and it's literally what has RUINED rphys for the past two expansions.

Not...at all, actually. The problem with Ranged is that the entire SUBROLE was suffering a damage tax, not because they were easy or hard to play. Hell, RDM and SAM were easy, too, but were allowed to do more damage in ShB, and SAM in EW. That's a tuning issue, not a complexity one.

And, strictly speaking, I mean within each role there should be a simple, moderate, and complex one. Caster did this in both ShB and EW successfully (more successfully in ShB, but whatever). Melee also does this, with SAM in ShB and RPR in EW being pretty simple, NIN or high optimization MNK being complex, and everything else being somewhere in-between. So it clearly does work. ForsakenRoe talks about AST vs WHM in SB and neglects to point out WHM actually had a lot of problems and AST offered far higher output - the numbers being different, not the complexity being different, is why WHM was blacklisted from groups. If people blacklisted "simple" Jobs, then SMN wouldn't have been the most played Caster in Omega Protocol and Dragonsong Reprise. And it was the most played in both. And in Omega, it's not even CLOSE (in DSR, RDM is closer to it, but there's still a gap there, and RDM is considered the second easiest anyway)

and being shoved a braindead model down your throat on a job you love is one of the worst feeling I've had the displeasure to experience, and I've been wandering around looking for other jobs that 110% click with me since then with no real success. I'm pretty sure the opposite would also be true, where you're a player that struggles more with difficult rotations, and get shoved a complex model down their throat with little accessibility... Fortunately that latter case is less and less possible because accessibility of most jobs has been really eased over years (which is a good thing).

Yes, This cuts both ways - having a clunky convoluted mess of "high skill ceiling complexity" forced on people is even more alienating. If your Job is made easy, you can still play it, at least, even if you enjoy it less. If your Job is made unplayable convoluted, you have to abandon your Job entirely, it's not even an option at that point. That makes it the worst of the two.

Yes, but it varies on Job and content.

In general, I'm also opposed to big changes on Jobs, especially from one type to another.

Like I love New SMN. It actually FEELS like a Summoner and really has nailed the class fantasy, and the rotation is both smooth as butter and incredibly satisfying to execute. But the thing is, there were people that played Old SMN - the Frankenstein monster held together by duct tape and hope - that really loved it to death with the class fantasy of being a DoT/Plague/Green Mage. And that was ripped away from them with nothing given in return, even though Old SMN could honestly have been split into two Jobs, a SMN and a GRM, and actually work.

But those people were robbed of something and not even given something comparable as compensation. That just hurts everyone.

See, the community really has a problem with the damage and performance mindset (fortunately nowhere yet near to WoW, but it's following the trend), especially in casual content where it's always about "carrying bad players" and "bad players wasting muh time", you'd literally be preaching to the choir here. But not tying your job performance and results to damage, especially at least on DPS jobs, is absolutely unrealistic and wishful. That's literally THE satisfaction you can take out of playing them well.

I think this comes down to the individual. Many people don't get satisfaction from doing rotations well or big damage numbers. It's why a lot of people don't play DPS Jobs or play support-leaning DPS Jobs, because they don't care as much about that. They don't get "THE satisfaction" from it.

Others, on the other hand, do.

IMO, good game design gives each type of player something they can play. For example, GNB was made for people that like more DPS focus and big numbers when they play correctly. It was designed from the ground up to appeal to those types of players but be a Tank option so players with that mindset had a Tank Job they could play/a Job within the Tank role they could enjoy. It's not for everyone, but it's for those people. Maybe other people like GNB, but that isn't the option presented. GNB is geared towards the rotational complexity (more technical than complex, but whatever) minded player, and if you aren't that kind of player, the Devs are basically saying "Sorry, but hey, there are other Tanks that we have in the game that are made for people like you and we hope you'll try them out and maybe enjoy them."

Players who love GNB likely aren't going to enjoy WAR, but that's fine. Players who enjoy WAR likely aren't going to enjoy GNB, but that's fine. Some players really care about the aesthetic and push through their playstyle preference feelings while others make their decision on playstyle. But the thing is, those are choices, which are good, even if people aren't perfectly happy. Are there some people who say "I only want to play GNB gut it's too complex so I'm quiting the game" or people that say "I only want to play WAR but it's too simple so I'm quitting the game"? Maybe there are. But far less than if EVERY Tank was WAR or EVERY Tank was GNB just with different aesthetics. That would probably annoy far more people in the end.

Healers have the opposite problem where NONE of them are (any longer) designed to appeal to players that like a lot of rotational complexity. The problem isn't that ALL of them aren't, the problem is that NONE of them are. The problem isn't that there are easy rotational Healer Jobs. The problem is they're ALL rotationally easy, meaning players that want clunky, barely playable Jobs because they define their self-worth in mastering bad controls don't have a Healer they can play. IMO, they should have one. They just shouldn't get all of them. Moreover, it would be really bad for the game if they did because the Healer exodus would make HW and SB's exoduses look like a walk in the park.

If you were saying that healers should take satisfaction in a well planned or executed healing, or clutch saves, or whatever makes them tick, then I'd be inclined to agree. I don't play healers for their DPS rotations (especially in their current state lol). I know a lot of healers that enjoy healing, and when they meet some savage content, they're left flabbergasted by the lack of healing skill expression, where their kits are literally 90% about healing tools.

Mhm. Agree with this.

But that's not DPS jobs.

Didn't say it was. My statement was about classes in general.

Though as a rule, most successful MMOs have at least one "easy" DPS Job. Largely for that reason - Devs know that some people play with their friends, and friends playing together is good for the longevity of MMOs, so having "that one class" that anyone can play well tends to be good for the game. For quite some time in WoW (or even still today), Hunters were the most popular Jobs. Part of this was because they could solo well, but part was because they were just SO EASY to play. In Vanilla, they were basically autoattacking in raids (early on due to the debuff limit and lack of good agro management tools; though Feign Death was theirs and arguably one of the best as long as it didn't "miss"). RDM was the simplest DPS Job in ShB and...the most played. SMN is now and...the most played.

The four types of MMO player - Achievers/Diamonds (people like you), Killers/Clubs, Explorers/Spades, and Socializers/Hearts - the last type in particular often requires this, but those people are also often the glue that keeps their friends paying subs. Likewise, Spades and Clubs don't care about complexity, they'll take it or leave it and are more concerned with what works. Achievers are...actually also the same: They want to achieve things, but don't always master their success by complexity. Some do, some are more interested in mastering boss mechanics and stuff like that than in mastering designed clunk. That is, SOME Achievers measure success by their mastery of clunk and technical class rotations, but others define their mastery by being able to master fight mechanics; some want both. But this is also why the super high end world-first players often include simple/easy Jobs in their clears. Far from shunning them, they see the value in having a slimmed down rotation while doing challenging content. Otherwise, every Caster clearing TOP would be a BLM and every Healer an AST/SCH team. (BLM and AST are actually the least played.)

While everyone will have their own personal experiences of what they consider to be 'easy' and 'difficult', I don't think this is something that the dev team should ever offer an 'official' commentary on. The problem with the mindset that 'this job is officially harder to play, therefore is more powerful' is that you have the dev team officially sanctioning a balance discrepancy. Which means that players aren't going to want to play or take the officially sanctioned weaker job.

Which is why I've never advocated they do more damage. I do the opposite. Frequently.

I was saying that their rotations should be different in terms of complexity. Their damage should be balanced to be about the same when both are played optimally. This means if someone opts for a complex Job and plays poorly, they'll do less damage than someone playing the simple Job more poorly. But what they're getting is a playstyle they enjoy more and find more engaging and fun.

I think Caster is the best subrole in the game right now because it legitimately does this for the most part by having three levels of complexity that are all viable. Downside is it is somewhat based on damage, which is why I think ShB honestly did it even better. SMN in ShB did comparable damage with BLM (which is why they kept nerfing its potencies... <_< ). The three difficulties from simple to complex were RDM < BLM < SMN. But what SMN offered over BLM wasn't higher damage; it was comparable damage with higher utility. In its hay-day, SMN was doing roughly equal damage to BLM (sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less) in ShB. But what it brought to compensate for what was absolutely a far more complex and difficult rotation was more mobility (DWT/FBT phases, 8 Ruin 4s and Egi-Assaults per 2 mins, arguably Ruin 2 substitutions if necessary), a party damage buff, a utility Raise (not as spamable as RDM, but still usable in emergencies), and some light party support from Phoenix healing and Excog-lite.

Players going for the more complex Job WERE rewarded, but not with more damage. They were rewarded with more utility, the value of which would depend on the player. RDM did less damage, but the gulf was smaller than now, I think, and it offered a combination of high amounts of utility (party damage buff, extremely situational healing, S tier combat raising) while also still having either the simplest or second simplest (after either DNC or BRD, depending on who you asked) rotation in the game.

Even in EW with it being not as good, the varied Job difficulty is still something the Caster role exemplifies well, it's just all weird now since RDM is way weaker than it should be, leading to SMN doing more damage while offering more utility AND being simpler to play. BLM is only competitive because it does much higher DPS...but it's still the least played of the three. Which is fine, it's there for people that want that higher bar.

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I think the issue with Ranged, SPECIFICALLY, is the Dev team KINDA designs them to be a fourth role type (Support), but won't actually commit to there being a Support role in the game.

So you have this weird case of "the DPS subrole that does less damage and does some support things...oh, but it's still TOTALLY a DPS. Oh, and one of them does less support and is damage focused. It still does less damage than any Melee or Caster, though. Because it's a damage focused selfish Job, but it's still in the DPS category, but in the support sub-category, because we don't have a Support just DPS, so it's a bad DPS that does less DPS because if offers support...but it doesn't offer Support."

It's in this weird limbo where Ranged are TREATED as if they're a fourth Support role (do less personal DPS but offer party buffs to allies), but because the Devs won't actually fully embrace that, you get this half-and-half nonsense that then becomes utterly absurd in the case of pre-6.3 MCH being trapped in the paradox of being a "selfish high persona DPS Job" in a "taxed, do lower DPS than all other DPS subroles" role.

(Seriously, they should just add a "Support/Yellow Icon" role, stick BRD, DNC, probably RDM, and maybe but probably not NIN in it, combine the rest into plain "DPS/Red Icon", have the DF work where it treats Support and DPS the same for the purposes of filling parties, and then actually MAKE THE JOBS WORK based on that instead of kinda/sorta/but also not shoe-horning them in other subroles...)

The problem with "performance within a job is always variable" is that it's not always VIABLE if the DPS gap is too large. If effective play is rewarded with DAMAGE - note damage, specifically; utility doesn't always incur this problem - then you are punished for making mistakes. On the other hand, if effective play is rewarded with non-damage utility of some form (greater mobility, better defense, more self-sustain, etc), then that is less of a problem since those things aren't strictly necessary but are often nice to have. For example, if optimal RDM play gave you tons more mobility such that a master RDM player could handle all the "spread, stand in towers, etc" type mechanics really well, this would be rewarding but not make RDM's that aren't perfectly optimal unable to clear content or a drag on their team. That is a case of rewarding effective play without punishing mistakes, because the additions you get for effective play may be useful but aren't mandatory, necessary, or what players decide party composition based around, but which high level players can flex to do things like speedruns or world firsts.

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i am both interested and slightly concerned at what this means. it sounds like it was a lot of hoops to go through to keep good uptime on that alongside your other skills.

It was.

And some people loved it, which is why I think it was good for the game.

Some people hated it, so the Devs up to that point had done a few things (1 was remove Cleric Stance - though to be fair, Cleric's problem was it was a WHM, then Cross-Class ability; had it just been a SCH ability and not cross-class, then the Healers could have self-selected and the problem would have solved itself) to make it a bit more functional. Then in ShB, they just got tired of messing with it and the constant complaining, seemed like.

I think it's good for the game to have different Jobs that play differently; vastly differently in some cases. That way, those players that enjoy those playstyles can enjoy them. I think the problem comes when those decisions start affecting balance and/or when people start demanding homogenization/having toys the others have that they don't. That is, when people insist that the harder Job should "do more damage for the more work" (even if they're literally asking for said more work) and/or when people demand stuff like every Healer should have a party Sprint like SCH or that some things should just be role actions so every Job in the role has the same "essential" ability (it's almost never actually essential...); those two things ruin it for everyone.

When the solution was "If you like DPSing and juggling damage abilities while Healing, play SCH, if you don't like those things and prefer more thoughtful and methodical healing, play WHM; they're both viable in content and the best parties have one of each", the game worked really really well (WHM and SCH being the only two healers in ARR). It was when we moved away from that that things began to break down and we had multiple crashes in the Healer population in various ways all the way up until...well, Endlwalker, ironically. But that may be because a new Healer Job being added.

...much as people say a new Job being added to a role doesn't boost the number of people playing the role, the data seems to suggest otherwise.

Jobs should have more variety in simple vs complicated, It's fine to have Jobs that are easier to play it's fine to have Jobs that are harder to play, I think the issue is that being "busy" doesn't mean difficulty when a lot Jobs designs are needlessly busy in the 120 minute windows, but outside of that they're just pressing a 1, 2, 3 filler.

Agree with this.

Disagree with "WHM should have...more damage buttons or something?"; WHM actually is tied for the most damage buttons it's had in the game's entire history. It has as many as it had in SB (or 1 more, depending on how you're counting) and as many as it had in ARR. I think it might have one less than it had in HW, but the one less was a situational ability that wasn't actually used in optimal gameplay. So WHM is, in effect, what it's always been. The bigger issue is that Healers all have so many oGCD heals now (in ARR and HW, SCH was the oGCD Healer and WHM was the GCD Healer; it still is with Lilies but not the rest of its GCD heals) that it's shoehorned all the Healers into this weird "apply your DoT, use your one other utility damage spell, spam your spam spell, when the damage spikes come in, pop 1-2 oGCDs and everyone will be at full health, then go back to spam spell".

If nothing else, it makes them all very samey.

Honestly (there's a thread in the Healer forum right now about Healers Then and Now), the real issue is SCH.

WHM and AST feel different to play (people that say they don't are only looking at their GCD cast heals, which neither uses outside of emergency fallbacks), though AST probably needs some work. SCH and SGE feel like clones of each other with different coats of paint and SGE being SLIGHTLY easier. But SCH is actually the most spamnuke (Broil) focused Healer (moreso than WHM is a Glarebot - I know, it surprised me, too, but the math doesn't lie, and FFLogs confirmed this)

Changing SCH back more towards its SB form would...probably make it a bit less played by people that like current healing, but would make it highly appealing to players that enjoy that complex playstyle. But moreover, it would also fix several other problems at once. SGE would no longer feel like SCH, and it would reduce how samey the Healers all feel. That should honestly be the first thing done in any Healer overall project. The next should be AST, since it's more distinct and doesn't have the overlap problem SCH/SGE does, but is THE MOST spamnuke spammy (Malificbot) of all the Healers. Though maybe that's the one to do it, given their Card sidegame, but if so, then THAT needs to be made more interesting like it was in SB.

WHM is arguably the Healer that is (somewhat ironically, given history) working the best right now. The one thing it needs is a ~60 sec damage mitigation button, since it's the only Healer that has less than 3 mits per 2 minutes on average over the course of a fight...having only the ONE.

[Valence]

Like...I find MCH really fun. It's the ONLY Ranged that I like playing. BRD is frustrating with the feast or famine procs and priority system being all over the place, and DNC.......I just hate DNC with a passion.

MCH, on the other hand? The Job is fun, abilities feel impactful, there's a priority system but it's pretty understandable and feels good to execute, the burst feels satisfying and high paced, and the base rotation is there for any time you'd otherwise have less to do or be bored. It just works on so many levels. It's easily the best designed Ranged in the game right now now that Hypercharge has a charge system.

I'd even say MCH is the ONLY good Ranged Job in the game right now in terms of play and feel. It's the only one that I at all enjoy. The others I'm leveling in Frontlines because of how much I dislike them.

I'd say this is a case of "Understand what what you like is not universal, and some things need to be made that you won't like to appeal to others". I have no problem with BRD and DNC being Jobs I don't like, even though archer is one of my favorite class fantasy/archetypes in gaming and the fantasy genre. But BRD in this game is for players that aren't me. MCH is more for players like me. Everyone wins.

MCH burst feels pathetic and spamming heat blast like a monkey for 20% of the time doesn't feel great to me, but I'm happy it does for you. Nothing in the kit feels cohesive with each other, you have tools that you just have to use on CD else they drift and it feels awful, but they don't talk in any meaningful way with either the gauge, the combo filler, or the job mechanics. The combo filler could be replaced by a simple pvp button since it doesnt even have branches like most, it's just a boring filler. Some abilities give battery but it feels completely random on what decided that they should or not, and queen is a just a fire and forget underwhelming button that still doesnt have a single AoE ability.

But that's right, all of this always boils down to subjective tastes. The thing you're missing though is the baggage that comes with MCH. They decided to strip down the job of all of its identity and what made it tick and defined it before, gave some of those good parts to other jobs (namely RDM, DNC), and kept all the awful crap that people were telling them to get rid of (the latency issues, the 1.5s GCDs, etc). It used to be the biggest burst job in the game, known for having to play piano and cram everything into it to get a VERY satisfying result, tempo-ed by downtime in between. It was a rigid clockwork job sure, and it definitely had clunk and problems, sure. But what doesn't sit well with me at all is that they decided to alienate a whole bunch of players by completely drastically changing the job identity and feel. If they wanted fixed combos and inner release spamm, they could have used it for a new rphys job instead as far as I'm concerned.

[Dyvid]

They decided to strip down the job of all of its identity and what made it tick and defined it before, gave some of those good parts to other jobs (namely RDM, DNC), and kept all the awful crap that people were telling them to get rid of (the latency issues, the 1.5s GCDs, etc). It used to be the biggest burst job in the game, known for having to play piano and cram everything into it to get a VERY satisfying result, tempo-ed by downtime in between. It was a rigid clockwork job sure, and it definitely had clunk and problems, sure. But what doesn't sit well with me at all is that they decided to alienate a whole bunch of players by completely drastically changing the job identity and feel. If they wanted fixed combos and inner release spamm, they could have used it for a new rphys job instead as far as I'm concerned.

This I think is key with these job redesigns. It spits in the face of players who actually enjoyed playing the job. If the devs and community want more straightforward jobs, then make new jobs. If they feel the need to redesign jobs due to reasons, redesign in a way that is respectful of the original designs current job mains enjoy.

[Renathras]

...

You're using subjective terms. How does it "feel pathetic"? It feels fast paced and really good to me. 1-2-1-3-1-2-1-3 with all those weaves in it feels great, like you're firing a machine gun or something, which is also how GNB feels with Continuation. Generally speaking, I don't like high APM Jobs, but I like MCH and GNB when they do it. Not only does it feed into the Job fantasy, it feels really smooth and fast pace.

I'm not sure what DOESN'T feel cohesive about it. You have several gadgets that have to recharge after use, and all of them hit hard and feel good to use. Drill has felt fantastic to hit since it was introduced. Honestly, the only thing that feels kind of stupid is the Battery Gauge since it doesn't really make a lot of sense that you generate "battery" by shooting things. They should just make Rook/Queen charge at a set rate, either CD based or a 1% per sec or something and let you decide when to use it, but either way. But that's honestly my only complaint about it. Queen hits hard and is always cool to get on the field. Though Queen (and DRK's Frey) are the only two that make me freak out on a Healer in fights when I see that "one person" still standing in the dangerous spot the boss is telegraphing before I realize it's not an actual party member, lol

They decided to strip down the job of all of its identity and what made it tick and defined it before, gave some of those good parts to other jobs (namely RDM, DNC), and kept all the awful crap that people were telling them to get rid of (the latency issues, the 1.5s GCDs, etc). It used to be the biggest burst job in the game, known for having to play piano and cram everything into it to get a VERY satisfying result, tempo-ed by downtime in between. It was a rigid clockwork job sure, and it definitely had clunk and problems, sure. But what doesn't sit well with me at all is that they decided to alienate a whole bunch of players by completely drastically changing the job identity and feel. If they wanted fixed combos and inner release spamm, they could have used it for a new rphys job instead as far as I'm concerned.

Honestly, this is the one part I can somewhat agree with. They fixed the 1-2-3 not always triggering (which was kinda dumb), but not the Hypercharge or Wildfire (the latter of which they STILL haven't fixed), but I disagree they stripped its identity. Though I still miss the Reload and Quick Reload animations (I feel those are what they should use for stuff like Rassemble and love how they always made me think of Outlaw Star and Jean Starwind's Caster gun), the rest of the kit is still there. The 1-2-3 combo, the oGCD attacks, Wildfire, sprayandpray machine gun cone AOE (now with added Shotgun awesomeness at high levels - the single most fun ability in the game to me to press aside from possibly Double Down; pity it isn't used in single target fights...), and an automaton you can call for additional help (I just wish they were still more persistent, but I get the Devs are just moving away from persistent pets in general...and am honestly surprised SCH Faeries still exist given how hard the Devs have been moving that direction...)

So I DON'T agree they stripped MCH of what it was to be a MCH.

The part I agree with is that I don't think they should change Jobs out from under people, since no matter the Job, there are some people that enjoy them. They've done this with PLD (most recently), SMN, MCH, MNK, and with AST several times; to a lesser extent, they've done this with BRD (twice), NIN, SCH, DRK, and WAR...and probably others that I didn't realize, though other cases may be a bit more debatable.

To a point, classes change over time, and that's the nature of an ever-changing game, which most MMOs are. Compare basically any WoW class today to its Vanilla WoW version, and very few are even...recognizable. I'm honestly not sure ANY are. And in FFXIV, the only Jobs that haven't had significant changes are the ones released in 4.0 or later. And even then, they've had CHANGES, just RDM, GNB, DNC, RPR, and SGE haven't had gameplay changing ones yet (SAM is debatable owing to Kaiten; RDM still plays MOSTLY the same it did in SB and ShB, just with a somewhat faster rate of resource generation, DNC and GNB still play the same, and obviously RPR and SGE's only changes have been tuning, not gameplay)

...but when it's a huge change all at once - like Green Caller...er, I mean, "Summoner" - then it's more stark and more alienating, and why those should be new Jobs added OR, if it's a change to an old Job, a new Job should be added for that. For example, changing SMN to New SMN isn't terrible, the problem is, they just threw all the Green Mage components into the trash instead of introducing a GRM Job.

Modern MCH is fine, the problem is that old MCH was removed and replaced with it, instead of them adding Corsair or Musketeer or something for one and new MCH being the other.

.

I guess what I most contest is when people insist that new versions are garbage when they aren't. Read any thread on SMN and you'll see people calling it garbage and even unfixable (which, itself, assumes it needs fixing in the first place). Instead of just saying that they don't like it and that they think they'd prefer something else. The latter I will never fault someone for, because different people like different things, and I think it is good for everyone to always keep that in mind. The new versions of PLD, SMN, and MCH are all fine. But it's fair to complain that their previous versions were removed rather than new ones introduced or the old ones re-introduced as new Jobs if the old Job HAD to be changed for its class fantasy/identity or something (old SMN wasn't really a "Summoner" by most fantasy definitions, much less most FF games)

I do agree in many of these cases that it's odd they didn't just add new Jobs. Like they could have taken Old SMN, removed the Egis and Demis, and the remnant of what was left in the old rotation could basically BE Green Mage, just give it some big CD for where the old Demis were and replace Egi-Assaults with something thematically appropriate and you basically have a new Caster Job with almost no Dev resources expended (not to mention it already fit in the 2 min burst window meta)

I don't think it's an insult or "spits in the face" of people. I think it's the Devs genuinely trying to make things work better. But I do think something is lost when it's done, at least the major changes. But almost all Jobs over the age of "since SB" have had this happen.

[Valence]

You're using subjective terms. How does it "feel pathetic"? It feels fast paced and really good to me. 1-2-1-3-1-2-1-3 with all those weaves in it feels great, like you're firing a machine gun or something, which is also how GNB feels with Continuation. Generally speaking, I don't like high APM Jobs, but I like MCH and GNB when they do it. Not only does it feed into the Job fantasy, it feels really smooth and fast pace.

You're the one using subjective terms. I told you what my problem with it was. I don't like mindless spamm of buttons. I like having to align well thought out patterns or use my brain to settle priorities, which MCH used to be all about. Not that machinegun nonsense, which it all but feels like to me (probably very subjective). To me it feels like DRK edge of shadow spamm under delirium with a little more speed, and if you mean that DRK's delirium also feeds into a machinegun job fantasy and identity, then I don't know... I really don't know.

I'm not sure what DOESN'T feel cohesive about it. You have several gadgets that have to recharge after use, and all of them hit hard and feel good to use. Drill has felt fantastic to hit since it was introduced. Honestly, the only thing that feels kind of stupid is the Battery Gauge since it doesn't really make a lot of sense that you generate "battery" by shooting things. They should just make Rook/Queen charge at a set rate, either CD based or a 1% per sec or something and let you decide when to use it, but either way. But that's honestly my only complaint about it. Queen hits hard and is always cool to get on the field. Though Queen (and DRK's Frey) are the only two that make me freak out on a Healer in fights when I see that "one person" still standing in the dangerous spot the boss is telegraphing before I realize it's not an actual party member, lol

1) How does hitting hard and "feeling good to use" have anything to do with feeling like a cohesive toolkit?
2) They don't actually hit that hard
3) Drill was like disneyland to me when it has been introduced: at first the magic is nice, and after a week it's faded off. Don't get me wrong, the skill animation is neat, we get to use that alexander robot skill, but I'm talking about mechanics here, not the visuals of the skill.
4) My thought on the matter is that they should have tied the battery gauge to Hypercharge, where dumping heat to recharge electricity actually makes a lot of sense