Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Lyth]

...

Sure, let me clarify.

In a traditional 'trinity' design, tanks are designed to either proactively or reactively reposition the boss in order to ensure that the party can continue to safely and efficiently do damage. Sometimes this is by moving a boss out of hazards, and sometimes this is by repositioning the boss in a way that lets players swap off of another target back to the boss without losing uptime. As dps players, part of your skill is in anticipating how your tank will act (including in cases where you're teamed with an inconsistent tank) and positioning yourself in a way that maximizes uptime. This sort of fight design reached its peak in Heavensward but doesn't really exist anymore because the inherited game code has problems with snapshotting and executing boss actions.

In an ARPG design, you have little to no control over boss movement, but you rely on animation tells to make predictions about how to position yourself to optimize your damage output. It's still all about anticipation, but you're less reliant on having a consistent and competent tank to guide movement. As melee, that may mean that you know the exact second when the boss rotates to perform an action which may mess up a positional, or as ranged it may mean that you've identified the one pixel that you can stand in that let's you cast through the next two mechanics. If you want to push the player harder with this type of design, then you need more complex timings from the boss. And to be able to respond to that, you need the player to have access to more movement tools that let them reposition in subtle ways without having to stop performing actions.

The problem at the moment is that FFXIV is straddling these two fight design styles. If the former was the chosen approach I would go back to tanking in a heartbeat, because that's what I enjoyed about the role. If it's the latter, I'm probably going to enjoy melee the most. The problem is that you have such long periods of downtime between mechanics when you're just unloading into the boss, such that all roles feel equally underwhelming. This is why I think that a lot of the frustration comes down to fight design. If you can comfortably reduce a scenario down to target dummy conditions in your head, you've solved the fight. Rotational changes aren't going to fix this. Movement actions open up possibilities for more uptime, which in turn lets you push the player harder to maintain it.

[Valence]

Sure, let me clarify.

That's an interesting perspective. Personally I hate the ARPG model and it probably makes me of another time those days (this is probably why I hate all the combat systems of modern FF games with no exception), but well... I guess it'll boil down harder to a matter of tastes on that point. I personally thing that the game code is way more suited to the former than the latter though. It feels awful when the boss turns or moves out of position when you need to be tactically positioned for your rotation to work, but when it's about the tank or your team it's something that you can control and work upon as teamplay. When it's the boss without any warning, it gets really annoying at times.

Yeah, I actually kinda miss the tank defensive positionals of HW, where being hit in the back increased damaged and crits. Maybe it wasn't perfect, but tactically it was fun (accuracy wasnt though).

[Valence]

I think the issue is that being "busy" doesn't mean difficulty when a lot Jobs designs are needlessly busy in the 120 minute windows, but outside of that they're just pressing a 1, 2, 3 filler.

I even think variety extends beyond rotations, I don't think Jobs should just only serve a purpose of being there to bring a slightly different rotation and cosmetic look, at least I would enjoy something that brings new options or something else.. But It feels like even expecting a Job with at least a nice rotation feels like I'm expecting too much. Raid buffs aren't even interesting you just click this 120 buff and yay. I don't think the current raid buff system works in favour of making jobs stand out unless they're Bard, Dragoon, dancer or Astro.

DPS jobs have always managed more or less to keep a relatively unique structure to them, although some definitely share some core traits, but for tanks and healers it's always been a problem and it's not something especially new that came magically and recently.

WhM and SCH were two very different healers since the dawn of time, and when AST got released, in spite of having the dual sect option, it still shared most of its core toolkit with WhM, where every heal could be replaced with the ones from the other almost 1:1 except for the few OGCDs they had. Tanks have shared the same core basic combo branches since day one with some flavor sprinkled on top. They all had the power combo and the aggro combo, with a dot branch and/or a buff/debuff branch. Like healers, the core was utterly the same thing, and the flavor was located on the additional toolkit, and this hasn't changed much. The introduction of DRK and GNB doesn't break the pattern, and SGE is just another SCH in disguise with a different flavor.

On raid buffs, it's been an actual peeve of mine. We used to have a lot of them being unique and interesting, like Foe Requiem that lasted as long as the BRD had MP remaining (or could be shut down on demand). It actually brought a ton of party teamplay and planning, and a good bard player could adjust when to use it to match other buffs. Hypercharge was cd based but could apply on both turret modes (damage or mp regen), and battle voice also applied on manasong (and now it's just one of those extremely hollow raid buffs on cd). This is what rphys used to be about, compared to the support boredom we have now.

( Make us use our MP pools again damnit )

I am okay with the new Radiant Finale that actually requires more than just a cooldown, but they could do away with the actual cooldown that serve literally no purpose but to make it rigid without any need. I am okay with devilment because it's not just a +X% damage generic raid buff. But as far as the rest goes? It's bland.

[Rithy255]

My main issue is Melee DPS, on the surface they're "pretty" different and even have different rotations when you consider something like Monk vs Dragoon, but i Just find them really? Uninteresting in what they bring to the table and actual differences in playstyle.. This is beyond the fact that fights were designed around melees having super easy uptime, where unique Jobs like Ninja having a really short raid buff was interesting to me, The ranged uptime it could get was interesting, now it feels like those aspects don't really matter, think 1. Making range more value again, it was a mistake to give melees practically no struggles with uptime 2. Make a melee that's maybe just totally different from the others... Maybe even a proc based slightly RNG melee would be pretty cool.

Casters & Phys ranged, are actually generally pretty well designed and varied all things considered, I do think SMN/RDM should be slightly higher, especially RDM, BLM should be above current melees, but in general they feel so vastly different to me compared to melees despite there being 5. With Phys ranged, you got nice support elements and completely varied rotations, that feel totally different from one another at least I think something like a Machinist vs Dancer they both play so differently to any melee vs each other, on top of adding small utilities to the party.


With Tanks & Healers, Tanks generally are in a slightly better state (from my perspective), but their needs to be more Varity Shadowbringers warrior was really fun for me, despite being a "ez" job I loved the way it's Short CD were two separate abilities both with good use cases, I also liked having more then one thing tied to gauge. Paladin Is a example of a tank that could be made into something more interesting with a "defensive gauge" having more useable utilities, Dark Knight could stand out again as a "risk vs reward" tank.

Healers Like Astro vs white mage, they both feel totally different to play, I also agree that sage/scholar are basically the same job, I honestly think scholars just outright a better job due to speed boost. but yeah I can't say either one stand out to me. 7.0 should revamp healers.

I think raid buffs are mainly interesting when they interact with the jobs core gameplay or theirs a choice, targetable raid buffs such as astro cards feel interactive (Despite being made simple over time), You actively have cards that will benefit more with picking the right person at the right time, it's not a 120 raid buff that you press and forget about. I think while you make a good point about physical ranged being made more boring and less supportive is a good point, though I feel like Phys ranged will still be more interesting then melees ever could hope to be currently... That being said I like the idea of bard (phys ranged in general) being more active with it's supportive buffs.

[Valence]

That's the problem with melees in general, their additional job unique tools make them unique, but their base combo patterns are all similar, and while it's not on the level of healers with their gcd heals, it's not that far off. I'm also all for more proc based jobs in general. Combos are unappealing, especially with so little or no branches those days. Could just replace them with a single pvp button to reduce bloat and add new fun toys, and we would be better already.


Casters are very diverse yes, and that's good. SMN however, has suffered from the sqenix axe of butchering that MCH went through the past expansion because apparently it's easier to redesign from scratch than fix what's broken, especially when redesigning from scratch is intended to stay at a level so basic that it's literally braindead (SMN) or bland (MCH). Rphys are different from each other, yes and no, because BRD and DNC are actually very similar jobs when it comes to how their bursts play out. Fortunately, their job mechanics are different enough to keep them apart (mostly due to the very unique bard song system). MCH is a travesty and I don't even want to get into how bad and nonsensical that design is.

On mitigation, I'll admit that the recent buffs were truly needed for rphys and I actually appreciate this. However, unlike in the past, everybody and their mothers have mitigation to bring to the party (even melees and casters with addle-feint, and addle-feint is good on a short cd). Tanks and healers now all have a crapload of party wide mitigation tools as well, and RDM even has magick barrier. It's stopped for two expansions to be the relatively exclusive realm of rphys to bring that kind of party support, and while I think it's a good thing that everybody has to chime in when it comes to mitigation, it also removed one of the fundamental aspects that made rphys unique.

[Mikey_R]

That's the problem with melees in general, their additional job unique tools make them unique, but their base combo patterns are all similar, and while it's not on the level of healers with their gcd heals, it's not that far off. I'm also all for more proc based jobs in general. Combos are unappealing, especially with so little or no branches those days. Could just replace them with a single pvp button to reduce bloat and add new fun toys, and we would be better already.

I hope you aren't advocating for every job to be proc based? If you are, then you need to realise that there are players out there that do enjoy the more rigid combos, so yo uneed options for both.

[VentVanitas]

That's the problem with melees in general, their additional job unique tools make them unique, but their base combo patterns are all similar, and while it's not on the level of healers with their gcd heals, it's not that far off. I'm also all for more proc based jobs in general. Combos are unappealing, especially with so little or no branches those days. Could just replace them with a single pvp button to reduce bloat and add new fun toys, and we would be better already.

Don't touch my MNK combos, thanks.

It has the opposite problem actually. The fundamental structure of the job in its GCD loop is the most unique thing it has while its other aspects like Chakra and Blitz... not so much. Normally, I would count other things such as Six Sided Star but uses for it in EW so far have been very scarce outside of the typical "last attack before boss goes intangible/is dead."

[Valence]

They fixed the 1-2-3 not always triggering (which was kinda dumb)

Are you for real? What was there even to fix?? That's the whole point of proc based jobs! Do you want to fix bard and dancer, or especially RDM that stole most of the design too while you're at it?

but I disagree they stripped its identity. Though I still miss the Reload and Quick Reload animations (I feel those are what they should use for stuff like Rassemble and love how they always made me think of Outlaw Star and Jean Starwind's Caster gun), the rest of the kit is still there. The 1-2-3 combo, the oGCD attacks, Wildfire, sprayandpray machine gun cone AOE (now with added Shotgun awesomeness at high levels - the single most fun ability in the game to me to press aside from possibly Double Down; pity it isn't used in single target fights...), and an automaton you can call for additional help (I just wish they were still more persistent, but I get the Devs are just moving away from persistent pets in general...and am honestly surprised SCH Faeries still exist given how hard the Devs have been moving that direction...)

So I DON'T agree they stripped MCH of what it was to be a MCH.

I am not speaking how MCH looks. It looks good. I'm speaking about how it feels MECHANICALLY.

1) It used to be a tight, high octane burst based job that lined up everything in it. It was about 40-45% of its total damage crammed into that burst window. The damage spike for the current burst is pitiful in comparison
2) It used to be proc based with actual patterns and priorities to think about, and ammo to use properly to prepare your bursts, it is not anymore.
3) It used to be a balancing act (heat), it's not anymore.
4) It used to provide party buffs like a rphys, it doesn't anymore.
5) WF used to compile everything inside, which offered a way more satisfying burst and skill expression that just the same GCD spammed 5 times.

[Valence]

( I have no idea how people manage to line up more than 3000 characters in those forums :c )

Compare basically any WoW class today to its Vanilla WoW version, and very few are even...recognizable. I'm honestly not sure ANY are.

I don't care about wow. I care about FF14.

What WoW does bad isn't an excuse for FF to do bad as well.

I guess what I most contest is when people insist that new versions are garbage when they aren't. Read any thread on SMN and you'll see people calling it garbage and even unfixable (which, itself, assumes it needs fixing in the first place).

I'd never call anything unfixable. It's usually sqenix dropping the ball there, not me. I was hoping for the old versions to get fixed, but when something requires fixes, they prefer to nuke it out of the sky.

I actually hoped (hope is way too much of a word for it) that the modern MCH version of ShB was just a dumb base with not much to it that just waited a proof of concept to be expanded seriously upon in EW. Instead, we got almost nothing. Do you truly think that if sqenix keep the same pattern we'll get a more mechanically involved summoner? Good joke.

It even took them 4 years (without counting the 4 other years of HW and SB) to actually start tackling the latency issues with stacks. People were already talking about stacks on the FSH model as far back as Stormblood already! Meanwhile the devs were saying "we test jobs with simulated latency in local, they all play fine and we didn't see any problem with it!". That's this level of cluelesness that doesn't sit well with people as well.

[Mikey_R]

( I have no idea how people manage to line up more than 3000 characters in those forums :c )

If you edit your post, you can bypass the 3000 character limit.