The difficulty of Normal Content in this game needs to increase.

[Absimiliard]

That's why they're midcore content. Because they're having to span the ranges between MSQ difficulty and Savage difficulty. It's why some EXs like EX1 are about as easy as a MSQ trial, and others like EX4 are nearing savage difficulty.

And yet the majority of players doing EX trials, regardless of where on the scale they fall, are still incapable of doing the mechanics. Therein lies the problem. What constitutes midcore is determined by the quality of the players, not the sensibilities of those of us that can already do the content. And hoboy, does this player-base suck.

Unfortunately, the ones that suck are probably gonna continue sucking because they have no incentive to move beyond their comfort zones and thereby improve themselves. They just kinda exist in a vacuum where every other roulette queue and party finder group is an absolutely miserable experience for the people being subjected to them. I'm sure people are going to say I'm being too harsh, and in truth I probably am a little bit, but I think we can all agree there really is a community skill issue at play here. A bad one.

[Amarande]

Normal content should be easy! but would be nice to have a middel ground to harder content (there is a huge gap between them).
Many have a life outside the game and can not spend 8hrs on a game everyday!

This. COVID and WFH only made it even more glaring too since people with cushier jobs got hours and hours of extra play time, while essential workers who still had to go to work basically got pushed out of the community for being "inexperienced."

We're at this point where apparently even dedicating what time you have often isn't enough. No, you're expected to put in more "minning" in RL too, such as ditching other games and hobbies so that you can put your everything into raiding. Not good. I thought we'd gotten away from that after the Old Hardcore Era faded?

The middle ground exists. People just like to say it doesn't coz reasons.

The reasons are relevant, especially when one of them (both WoW and XIV being guilty) is that the default community approach ends up being "okay, it's middle ground content, best practice is to fill the group with high tier players and steamroll it like baby content" which means that actual middle ground players it's meant for still struggle for niche.

Normal content should be normal. What we have right now is baby mode until you reach current content. If anything SE should at least decrease the ilvl cap for every encounter. Rule of thumb, if you can stand in any AoE without needing a healer you need to lower the ilvl cap. Healers are allowed to have fun, too.

You'll need more than that. I'm not actually sure this is solvable within XIV's constraints.

Healers still won't be able to "have fun" outside of baby mode, because the punishment debuffs make the natural "welp, he zigged when he shoulda zagged let me patch that up" flow impossible (especially now that Damage Down has had to come into play in a game that relies HEAVILY on time limits to provide challenge).

Without the punishment debuffs, however, DPS would (again largely because of said time limits) likely just try to stand in fire as much as possible to optimize output, which is also not exactly fun for the healer ...

Criterion on the other hand is just absolutely worthless by default, and no one should even waste the time with it until they give it some kind of proper reward structure.

Sad cynical thought: I've been beginning to get the thought there is a very real possibility that cooperative multiplayer (outside of its competitive aspect) was an experiment with a finite lifespan. The goals of long term replayability (which you need in order to supply enough team mates for the newcomers) and a reasonable rewards system seem to increasingly pull at each other to the point of tearing the whole thing apart.

What constitutes midcore is determined by the quality of the players, not the sensibilities of those of us that can already do the content. And hoboy, does this player-base suck.

Eh. It doesn't suck as bad as people say, IMO. This one lies on SE's shoulders: when so much content is designed so that just 1 out of 8 people who doesn't get it means the whole endeavor is moot despite the efforts of the others, you're easily going to feel like more people are bad than actually are. (I ran the math at one point. Assuming 8 people selected randomly, it takes surprisingly little of the overall pool to fall into the "potato" category to make it odds on that at least one of the eight will be: less than 10%, in fact. So the vast majority of the players can actually be gud and it will still easily feel otherwise, especially with the limited filtering PF allows)

[RyuDragnier]

And yet the majority of players doing EX trials, regardless of where on the scale they fall, are still incapable of doing the mechanics. Therein lies the problem. What constitutes midcore is determined by the quality of the players, not the sensibilities of those of us that can already do the content. And hoboy, does this player-base suck.

I've encountered quite a lot of players who I wouldn't allow to get near Savages with a 10 foot pole, but do well enough in EXs to where they pass. But yeah, I know what you mean, there's always a few people who really shouldn't be there and it always shows, even in older EXs. Good luck clearing EX2 sometimes, because I've been in farm parties where half the team are so bad that we actually hit enrage, the PL included. I usually leave those after the 3rd failed attempt.

[Gemina]

What constitutes midcore is determined by the quality of the players, not the sensibilities of those of us that can already do the content. And hoboy, does this player-base suck.

Using Barb EX prior to her instance getting access to the Echo, which to date is the hardest content I've cleared; I failed to clear many, many times despite joining groups who "know the fight", or "have seen enrage". The first time I cleared it, it was a practice party with the comment, "lesgoooo!" It took five pulls, and we got closer each time: 6%, 3%, 2%, even wiped at <1%. But we knew we had it, and when we did clear it, she didn't even start casting Maelstrom. Totally owned the B**.

The point here is quality of players does not dictate where along the difficulty scale the content lies. What it does determine is their ability to coordinate and work together as a team to get the job done. A group comprised of skilled and high quality players will make difficult content look a lot easier than it actually is, and the reverse is also true. Guides also work in this manner. When I listen to a guide from mizztech, I'm thinking, "Damn, look rough." When I listen to guide of the same instance from Hecterson I'm thinking, "Totally doable. Let's do this!" Does this change the actual difficulty and the hands on learning process for the duty? Nope, not one lick.

The players that suck or going to continue sucking because of attitudes like what you're expressing. It expresses a complete inability to work with your team, and that might clue you in on why you experience so many players unable to do mechanics.

[Absimiliard]

Lots of things

I feel it very important for you to realize just how important individual skill actually is. How skilled you are is an individual relates directly to your ability to contribute in a group setting. If you perform poorly, you could easily be the reason a group gets wiped by an enrage rather than managing the clear, even should the other members of that group be performing their roles adequately. You assert that any challenge in this game can be overcome solely through teamwork, and that as a result of this the perceived difficulty of content is in no way related to player skill. However, I submit to you that your skill as an individual is in fact integral to and reflective of your ability to work as a team. Lack of coordination in a team, even in random PF learning groups, can often be traced to players that are making no meaningful progress in their personal fight understanding or teamwork, as the two are indeed demonstrably linked.

The vast majority of players are unable to work effectively as a team. Even when taught how to do fights - even when provided with callouts and markers, most of them simply cannot or will not do it. There are also those that have the potential to improve to that degree but become demoralized and ultimately give up instead of continuing to push themselves. Additionally, it is important to consider that what is difficult for one person might not be difficult for another, which is why we use the majority as the basis for determining the actual difficulty of content relative to player-base. A minority being able to overcome a challenge does not mean everyone can, or that they would be willing to try to begin with.

Now, to your last point; the failings of others are not my responsibility. I'll gladly go out of my way to teach people that are willing to learn, but the ones that can't or won't, which does sadly appear to be the majority, are not problem. If being unwilling to tolerate those that won't better themselves means I'm "not a good team-player," that's fine. My opinion hasn't stopped me from clearing content, and it certainly won't magically start hindering me now.

I've encountered quite a lot of players who I wouldn't allow to get near Savages with a 10 foot pole, but do well enough in EXs to where they pass. But yeah, I know what you mean, there's always a few people who really shouldn't be there and it always shows, even in older EXs. Good luck clearing EX2 sometimes, because I've been in farm parties where half the team are so bad that we actually hit enrage, the PL included. I usually leave those after the 3rd failed attempt.

That one I can't figure out. Do people just use "farm party" to bait players in? 'Cause I'm really starting to think that might be the case.

[Raven2014]

...

You can certainly say teamwork is a ... ahem ... skill.

I have seen high-end team fail, just like I have seen low end team get through content through grit. But ... I also see the opposite. I agree with whoever said ealier that the game already have mid-level content, some just don't want to admit it 'cause it doesn't fit their narrative.

Even without putting label on thing, there are clearly different tier of content:

- MSQ and solo instance = face rolling.
- Expert dungeon = just know how to press button.
- Normal trial/raid = need to know mechanic.
- EX trial = please know the mechanic and decent with your class.
- Savage = know what to do and be damn good at doing it.
- Ultimate = so far up there most don't even think about trying.

So the game offer plenty of step in the scaffolding process, and the mid-core content certainly have a few places to fit into, regardless of someone think it does in their own definition.

[RyuDragnier]

That one I can't figure out. Do people just use "farm party" to bait players in? 'Cause I'm really starting to think that might be the case.

All I know is they wouldn't be doing that if people were still locked to parties only on their server. It's the sort of thing that can get you blacklisted quickly.

[Gemina]

I feel it very important for you to realize just how important individual skill actually is. How skilled you are is an individual relates directly to your ability to contribute in a group setting. If you perform poorly, you could easily be the reason a group gets wiped by an enrage rather than managing the clear, even should the other members of that group be performing their roles adequately. You assert that any challenge in this game can be overcome solely through teamwork, and that as a result of this the perceived difficulty of content is in no way related to player skill. However, I submit to you that your skill as an individual is in fact integral to and reflective of your ability to work as a team. Lack of coordination in a team, even in random PF learning groups, can often be traced to players that are making no meaningful progress in their personal fight understanding or teamwork, as the two are indeed demonstrably linked.

I'm glad you've ditched the attitude. It allows for a more civil discussion, and makes the sides of the argument much easier to comprehend. That said, I never implied that individual player skill is not important, but that's not what this is about. What this discussion pertains to is the difficulty of content along the middle ground. As I mentioned before, a group of skilled players can and will trivialize how challenging the content is, but that does not increase or decrease the difficulty of it. At the EX level, the content stops playing around and lets players know that knowledge of mechanics, obeying them, and group coordination are required to clear it. It also lets them know that if they do not know how to play their job properly and how their skills tie together, they will not be pulling their weight, and avoiding enrage will be difficult. The difficulty of any particular EX encounter is set by how many mistakes are allowed to be made and the clear still be possible. EX encounters become easier over time due to ilv increases, which allow more mistakes to happen along with the party causing more damage overall. The Echo by itself also makes the encounter less difficult each time the party wipes.

The vast majority of players are unable to work effectively as a team. Even when taught how to do fights - even when provided with callouts and markers, most of them simply cannot or will not do it. There are also those that have the potential to improve to that degree but become demoralized and ultimately give up instead of continuing to push themselves. Additionally, it is important to consider that what is difficult for one person might not be difficult for another, which is why we use the majority as the basis for determining the actual difficulty of content relative to player-base. A minority being able to overcome a challenge does not mean everyone can, or that they would be willing to try to begin with.

Nearly every person is capable of overcoming a challenge. That is what I feel is very important to take to heart. I don't think there is a single player who decides to participate in an EX encounter who does not think there will be challenges that will have to be overcome. That just confirms that middle ground content does exist, because in nearly all the content below the EX level, players don't have to worry about this at all. They will clear those duties one way or the other.

Now, to your last point; the failings of others are not my responsibility. I'll gladly go out of my way to teach people that are willing to learn, but the ones that can't or won't, which does sadly appear to be the majority, are not problem. If being unwilling to tolerate those that won't better themselves means I'm "not a good team-player," that's fine. My opinion hasn't stopped me from clearing content, and it certainly won't magically start hindering me now.

It's a team effort. Regardless if you feel it is your responsibility or not, you win or lose as a team. If someone screws up a mechanic that wipes the whole group, you can pin the blame on that one player, but this doesn't accomplish anything. When everyone helps this player understand their role in the mechanic they fail, and if that player communicates what exactly it is they do not understand to the others, the result more often than not is success. Especially opposed to just pointing the finger at them, and telling them they suck, or get better. A good example of this is when a player is confused on their clock position, or where a healer is supposed to take their stack marker. If it is unclear, wipes will happen. Help them to understand, and the content won't be harder than it needs to be.

[Absimiliard]

I'm glad you've ditched the attitude. It allows for a more civil discussion, and makes the sides of the argument much easier to comprehend.

I'm afraid I don't follow. My attitude and opinions are completely unchanged.

Nearly every person is capable of overcoming a challenge. That is what I feel is very important to take to heart. I don't think there is a single player who decides to participate in an EX encounter who does not think there will be challenges that will have to be overcome. That just confirms that middle ground content does exist, because in nearly all the content below the EX level, players don't have to worry about this at all. They will clear those duties one way or the other.

This, I believe, is where we disagree fundamentally. I'm not saying mid-content doesn't exist. I'm saying not every EX falls into that category. Some of them are basically MSQ level, and some of them manage to be worse than savage. Of this expansion's EX fights, most are not what your typical "midcore" player would consider approachable. One cannot, in my opinion, simply go "extreme trials are midcore" without additional commentary to this effect, if they wish to be correct. This partly stems from the fact the skill level of the player-base as a whole is quite low, with many of them simply being unwilling to learn regardless of how kindly or constructively advice is offered them.

[Gemina]

I'm afraid I don't follow. My attitude and opinions are completely unchanged.

When you are willing to express your PoV in a civil manner instead of just saying the playerbase sucks, it makes it easier to have a conversation with you. Even if you still feel that way, your restraint from continuing to express those thoughts is a change of attitude.

This, I believe, is where we disagree fundamentally. I'm not saying mid-content doesn't exist. I'm saying not every EX falls into that category. Some of them are basically MSQ level, and some of them manage to be worse than savage. Of this expansion's EX fights, most are not what your typical "midcore" player would consider approachable. One cannot, in my opinion, simply go "extreme trials are midcore" without additional commentary to this effect, if they wish to be correct. This partly stems from the fact the skill level of the player-base as a whole is quite low, with many of them simply being unwilling to learn regardless of how kindly or constructively advice is offered them.

Not a single EX encounter in EW is MSQ level of difficulty. However, they are also not the same strength either. Some are definitely easier/harder than others. However, they are still middle ground level. This goes back to where I said that skilled players can and will trivialize the content, that does not mean the difficulty all of a sudden gets lesser. The opposite is also true if you feel the overall skill level of the playerbase is low. Their unwillingness to go into the content for whatever reasons those might be does not make the difficulty of content greater. Where we fundamentally disagree is that you somehow think that player skill level and the difficulty of the content conflate with each other.

Players who might want to try EX content but are a bit anxious about it is normal. Those players understand that the game changes in this content, and they might feel like their skill level isn't up to par and don't want to hold other players back. If more players express a friendly and good demeanor, more of them will venture into it. This is how I feel the community can increase the overall skill level of the playerbase. Not increasing the difficulty of NM casual content and shoving it down their throats.