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  1. #221
    Player
    Raraka's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    Limsa Lomisa
    Posts
    261
    Character
    Raraka Raka
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    I suppose will chime in some other ideas I had while catching up on the thread

    Trial 1 and Trial 2 from Endwalker were amazing on the release month. People wiped, chatted on how the mechanic could be solved, asked and gave advice, and generally that ended in a clear after a few attempts

    Now, what I wanna make important about this is that both of those trials were very important bosses in the narrative, so making them as hard as they are (specially trial 2), in my opinion, makes the victory and first clear so much more fullfilling

    (And if you really struggled with it, you could either follow *that* NPC in trust, or get help from other players, wich kinda makes sense in a MMO)

    If you wanna go back to ShB, maybe they could have done a bit more with the dungeon wardens, like thrice-come ruin to make them feel more like a active threat. Going as back as to ARR, you have the leveling trials with very decent difficulty spikes to emphasise how the primals are strong enemies

    To wrap the idea what im trying to say is, they could, and have used difficulty to make the MSQ presentation of a foe, feel more accurate. If something is presented as a big enemy, it should feel like a big enemy in the combat.

    I personally think the Four lord series, Titania, EW trial 2 and even the Sky pirate series are great examples of difficulty used well in a narrative game, and even as someone that does Savage nowdays, I still find great enjoyment in any of these instances as they are a straight foward, but enjoyable challenge, packed into fun fights

    I feel like Dixie is more sick of the "Square peg, into the square hole, circle peg... into the square hole" design that a lot of normal mode suffers from, than the difficulty itself being "easy"
    (2)

  2. #222
    Player
    Gemina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Dravania
    Posts
    5,778
    Character
    Gemina Lunarian
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Absimiliard View Post
    I'm afraid I don't follow. My attitude and opinions are completely unchanged.
    When you are willing to express your PoV in a civil manner instead of just saying the playerbase sucks, it makes it easier to have a conversation with you. Even if you still feel that way, your restraint from continuing to express those thoughts is a change of attitude.


    This, I believe, is where we disagree fundamentally. I'm not saying mid-content doesn't exist. I'm saying not every EX falls into that category. Some of them are basically MSQ level, and some of them manage to be worse than savage. Of this expansion's EX fights, most are not what your typical "midcore" player would consider approachable. One cannot, in my opinion, simply go "extreme trials are midcore" without additional commentary to this effect, if they wish to be correct. This partly stems from the fact the skill level of the player-base as a whole is quite low, with many of them simply being unwilling to learn regardless of how kindly or constructively advice is offered them.
    Not a single EX encounter in EW is MSQ level of difficulty. However, they are also not the same strength either. Some are definitely easier/harder than others. However, they are still middle ground level. This goes back to where I said that skilled players can and will trivialize the content, that does not mean the difficulty all of a sudden gets lesser. The opposite is also true if you feel the overall skill level of the playerbase is low. Their unwillingness to go into the content for whatever reasons those might be does not make the difficulty of content greater. Where we fundamentally disagree is that you somehow think that player skill level and the difficulty of the content conflate with each other.

    Players who might want to try EX content but are a bit anxious about it is normal. Those players understand that the game changes in this content, and they might feel like their skill level isn't up to par and don't want to hold other players back. If more players express a friendly and good demeanor, more of them will venture into it. This is how I feel the community can increase the overall skill level of the playerbase. Not increasing the difficulty of NM casual content and shoving it down their throats.
    (9)

  3. #223
    Player
    VelKallor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    2,590
    Character
    Vel Kallor
    World
    Kujata
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Y'know, to hark back to what I said earlier...if any of you that do savage or extremes are criticising normal content as "too easy" , yet have third party programs..lets see you do it with a normal UI..because I suspect that the moment those addons are taken away, it will be a very different story.

    "Normal content is too easy"...in the same breath "I cant do savage or extreme content without addons , callouts and a dps meter".

    So.....which is it?

    I get annoyed by it when people say crap like 'I cant do savage because I have a life'
    I get annoyed when someone tells me to schedule my life around a video game.

    This is 2023 not 1980.

    The age disparity between then and now is huge, the average gamer is now in their mid to late 30's or older,

    The average age of a video game in Australia has remained at 34 years old and nearly half of all players are female.

    Older Australians also getting in on the act with 42 per cent of those aged 65 and over identifying as gamers...the perception that gaming is a young person’s domain has also been shattered with news that less than a quarter of videogame players are under 18.
    So yes, people do have lives, they have kids and jobs that take more than enough of their time, by end of the day they are ALREADY worn out and dont want to have to deal with yet more stress and hassle and schedules. This..surprises you?

    No one works 9-5 anymore, an INCREASING number of people work from home ( and for anyone who dislikes this trend, allow me to illustrate )....what happens when you scream "get back to the office or be fired" to your staff, add in a "manager" who apparently has been living under a rock for the last three years ...orders a staffmember to come in sick..what was the end result?

    200 cases of COVID

    ( It didnt happen you say? Ohhhh yes it did....that particular company is now in a 300 foot fwe heap. )

    Offices are Petri dishes..lemme clue you in in something btw, when I worked fulltime in an office I lost COUNT of the days I got sick, coughs, colds, flu, you name it.....what happened after I stopped working and was at home? I didnt get sick AT ALL and have had maybe one bout of flu in five years. Work from home has zero to do with "skill in a video game", with the current trends being what they are, I predict that in ten years offices will be a thing of the past, a few scattered here and there maybe, but thats all.

    WFH will be the norm across a swathe of industries.

    As ages increase, as the gaming population ages, normal content will become the go to area for ALL MMO's, things like savage etc will become a niche area, far more than they are now. A person in FF 14 at age 65 will have far less interest in extremes, Ultimates etc, and a lot more into story and casual content that can be cleared with a modicum of effort.

    Ive said this before but it bears repeating: Demographics drive game design.

    Times change, attitudes change, there is little to nothing wrong with normal content as it is now. You have hard mode for solo scenarios, you have Criterion Variant, Extreme, Savage, Ultimate...so I dont see an issue here.
    (6)
    Last edited by VelKallor; 02-12-2023 at 07:35 PM.

  4. #224
    Player
    RobynDaBank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Location
    Wraeclast
    Posts
    1,521
    Character
    Hope Sunflame
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda View Post
    The issue is any time normal content is made that requires pressing more than 1 button you get the same group of 4 ppl and their alts on here claiming they have every disability in the world on top of having no arms and legs demanding it be nerfed.
    The issue with expressing anything is too difficult for oneself is that you get the same group of elite "Ultimate raiders but only in their mind" people on here claiming that anyone who can't play on their level is stupid and/or faking disability.
    (11)
    Mortal Fist

  5. #225
    Player
    Rhael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    67
    Character
    Rhael Nelhah
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by VelKallor View Post
    there is little to nothing wrong with normal content as it is now.
    lol
    lmao even
    (8)

  6. #226
    Player
    IkaraGreydancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    1,245
    Character
    Ikara Graydancer
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda View Post
    The issue is any time normal content is made that requires pressing more than 1 button you get the same group of 4 ppl and their alts on here claiming they have every disability in the world on top of having no arms and legs demanding it be nerfed.
    Wtf? Man these exaggerations are insane at this point. Per the stupid logic that this is you'd ALWAYS see people asking for nerfs. I've not seen that since In From The Cold dropped with 6.0. We've had plenty of content since then and I've not once seen any call for a nerf or any claim of disability. So who is this supposed 4 man group with alts making these claims? Who are these agents banding together to do this?

    Your logic reeks of the toxic "uber elite" that no one in the community really likes or resonates with and that's not a good thing. It's dangerous
    (4)

  7. #227
    Player
    Kaurhz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    3,526
    Character
    Asuka Kirai
    World
    Sagittarius
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda View Post
    The issue is any time normal content is made that requires pressing more than 1 button you get the same group of 4 ppl and their alts on here claiming they have every disability in the world on top of having no arms and legs demanding it be nerfed.
    You have a knack for telling fictional stories. Considered turning that into a career endeavour?
    (5)

  8. #228
    Player Kazhar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    564
    Character
    Kazek Amilia
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by VelKallor View Post
    Y'know, to hark back to what I said earlier...if any of you that do savage or extremes are criticising normal content as "too easy" , yet have third party programs..lets see you do it with a normal UI..because I suspect that the moment those addons are taken away, it will be a very different story.

    "Normal content is too easy"...in the same breath "I cant do savage or extreme content without addons , callouts and a dps meter".

    So.....which is it?
    Even if we indulge in your vision that everyone who complains about the game being too easy is a dirty cheater in EX/savage, this argument makes no logical sense.
    There is a well-known gap in intensity between those two types of content, so finding EX/savage too hard has absolutely no relation to normal content being too easy. Both could potentially be true. If people cheated in normal mode, you'd maybe have a point, but instead a lot of people complain about a lack of content between normal and EX. If anything your strawman proves that such content is needed.
    (9)
    Last edited by Kazhar; 02-13-2023 at 02:16 AM.

  9. #229
    Player
    Amarande's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    244
    Character
    Miyako Aikawa
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Raven2014 View Post
    I'm curious, do people actually have a problem with not finding enough people playing with you in high level content, or people just simply pissed at other being bad for no reason?
    Much has to do with RL here, I expect. People that are unemployed, collegiate, or are fortunate to work a 9-5 office job and thus can regularly play with the peak herd find it easy.

    People that work, say, retail? Not so much. Second shift where I work has you getting home after 10 PM, first shift would mean being at work at 5 (or is it 4?) AM. The former you miss the rush and the latter you have to go to bed as it picks up. Also if you are not Eastern Time things get pushed around too because you have to consider the ET folks' bedtimes.

    Add in the extreme (much more than WoW) antipathy XIV raiders have at losing even one scheduled static night and things like Comcast (and SE) maintenance habits and night owls have a bit of an issue. Something in early Stormblood seems to have caused a shift as well because I remember the night life on Aether being very abuzz in 4.0-4.1, then around 4.2 or so people started going to bed early, and if you couldn't shift your schedule you mostly just got to watch your temporally privileged friends one by one happily join statics while you were stuck with late-tier PF.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaliesto View Post
    I'm not asking for Dark Souls level of crazyness, but definitely something needs to be done before it gets even worse.
    Funnily I've wondered if Dark Souls was actually a catalyst for this decline.

    It was just that popular, and not only forced that many people to get unusually good at action RPG gameplay compared to the past, but also presumably attracted a lot of people who weren't into "traditional" RPGs but had hitherto mainly played things like Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry.

    These people then came to dominate the genre, meanwhile most of us that feel the pinch of modern MMO culture seem to be the ones that arrived here from a gaming career of mainly traditional RPGs. We're dinosaurs, I guess, though, since we barely get anything anymore besides remasters, other than a bunch of cheap RPG Maker stuff and "adult" RPGs on Steam ...

    Quote Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda View Post
    The issue is any time normal content is made that requires pressing more than 1 button you get the same group of 4 ppl and their alts on here claiming they have every disability in the world on top of having no arms and legs demanding it be nerfed.
    In solo duties some phases can get pretty frantic (think 4.1, or the Level 86 EW story duty last phases). I can imagine a motor disability making them really hard (especially when the benefit from Easy or Very Easy is minimal, such as in these cases), and really frustrating because there's no (TOS-acceptable, anyway) way to get a leg up (another casualty of modern gaming, back in those days you used to hand your friend the keyboard and have them do it for you, now you'll possibly get banned for the equivalent online) so what can you do? Just shelve the game and wait for the paid story boost to be available past that point? That's pretty disheartening.

    There's also the unexpected gameplay shifts that can be fun sometimes but also easily frustrating, especially if you're in a RPG mindset instead of the "Gaming Decathlon" mindset MMOs seem to ask for now - or if, as sometimes (hi azure haired boy) it requires developing a play skill to a degree that you will use just the once and then is of little or no use thereafter.

    In group content, the fear is presumably getting stuck because you're good enough but mechanics mean you can't carry and you get paired with people that can't hack it you get stuck as well (thus fueling even more of a "rush it at release" mindset - do we really want 7.0 to be a repeat of Queue Savage?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Raraka View Post
    If you wanna go back to ShB, maybe they could have done a bit more with the dungeon wardens, like thrice-come ruin to make them feel more like a active threat.
    The trouble is this makes the healer situation even more stark. Healers feel like green DPS enough as it is, if you push individual responsibility any further you essentially might as well just phase out the Healer role altogether, as some of the newer Korean MMOs have done ...

    Quote Originally Posted by VelKallor View Post
    I get annoyed when someone tells me to schedule my life around a video game.

    This is 2023 not 1980.

    The age disparity between then and now is huge, the average gamer is now in their mid to late 30's or older,

    So yes, people do have lives, they have kids and jobs that take more than enough of their time, by end of the day they are ALREADY worn out and dont want to have to deal with yet more stress and hassle and schedules. This..surprises you?

    WFH will be the norm across a swathe of industries.
    Yep. And if there's one group that I see ROUTINELY get the short end of the stick in MMO communities, it's the working adult. Especially the working adult who does not have the privilege of working at home.

    Instead of being the backbone of the customer base, we're apparently just a bunch of inexperienced gamers dragging everyone down with our lack of time and energy that's treated as laziness by the "terminally online" crowd who dominate the community watering holes.

    And barely anyone seems to be interested in fixing this. You mostly see people wanting to push content to entertain the folks who have put aside everything else in life to perfect themselves at the game, and anyone else should ... apparently just be there to boost their Twitch views, I guess?

    Quote Originally Posted by RobynDaBank View Post
    The issue with expressing anything is too difficult for oneself is that you get the same group of elite "Ultimate raiders but only in their mind" people on here claiming that anyone who can't play on their level is stupid and/or faking disability.
    Yep. "Savage is easy, you're just bad." I can't count how many times I've caught that canard from elite players.

    I partly blame it on the Discord ecosystem, but due to the extreme popularity and the terms of service of Discord, I'm not entirely sure what the way back from this brink is ...
    (6)

  10. #230
    Player Midareyukki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Bozja
    Posts
    2,580
    Character
    Harun Asubra
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    I have only cleared a pair of savage fights before, when I feel up for it. I otherwise have more investment in the casual content. And yet I fully agree: most normal content, especially nowadays, is incredibly easy.

    I rather enjoyed Shinryu's level of difficulty when it came out, because I hadn't seen anything mandatory demand so much attention. It was honestly refreshing for me... but other people certainly disagreed at the time, with many people asking the fight to be toned down.
    I absolutely loved Orbonne because of the more demanding fight style with mechanics that required group coordination, know-how and realizing there were more details than just "lol stand on the place".
    That's why I liked POTD back then, because doing deep dives with my friends was so fun. We had to coordinate, we had to be careful, we had to know mechanics, we had to figure ourselves out whenever stuff went wrong...
    It's why I loved stuff like Dun Scaith or Ozma's fight.
    And that's also why I like CLL, Dalriada and Delubrum Reginae. Because they were casual content, yes, but they didn't hold your hand all the time either like the majority of the dungeons do.

    Sure, you can argue "well, everything in the game eventually gets easier through repetition". But I'm talking to things that, at least for me, posed a bit more of a challenge at base than the rest. Certainly nothing to the point of a Savage, but also requiring a bit more coordination than most other fights.

    To me, the Crystal Tower raids are absolutely boring.
    Euphrosyne is really, really bland apart from Halone that at least tries to be challenging.

    I like to tryhard. But I know several people don't, and that happens to be the demographic SE pays attention to. Because those people are the ones that are subbed into the game, take their time with content and just want to chill and explore.

    So... yeah. I'm not a raider under any stretch, I'm as casuul as it can get. And even then I think we're getting stuff that's honestly pretty easy.
    (3)

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