SE, don't overthink Summoner 7.0. Just give people what they want. Just do it.

[Ggwppino]

Technically, Physick is quite usable until you get proper level 50 gear or start wearing your level 45 ARR relic gear, as from levels 1 - 50, casters and healers share the same gear which is equip-pable by all Disciplines of War or Magic that offers both INT and MND at the same time. There's still not much of a reason to do so normally, but it is as roughly effective as Vercure is up until that point, so in a pinch, you actually can save yourself or someone else with it. Cutters Cry, for example, seems to shake up a lot of sprouts with The Dragon's Voice and The Ram's Voice, which I think are still untelegraphed since it's an optional pre-50 dungeon?

yes, You are right, it was rhetorical. But You are right. I rephrase the question: why should a smn after level 50 use Physick?

[ty_taurus]

yes, You are right, it was rhetorical. But You are right. I rephrase the question: why should a smn after level 50 use Physick?

Wasn't trying to be snippy, for the record. It came to mind more just because I find it interesting how a button can go from niche but usable to, usable only for the fact that it technically charges the party's limit break yet restores less HP than auto-healing once you start wearing of casting gear. But also it's a good reminder for anyone passing by that you can still use it in leveling dungeons and whatnot if needed.

[Connor]

yes, You are right, it was rhetorical. But You are right. I rephrase the question: why should a smn after level 50 use Physick?

I don’t think anyone is making the point that Summoners should be using Physick currently. I think the point is that the developers have never made Physick actually useable for Summoners. It’s just a dead button for the majority of the game.

But just because that’s what it is doesn’t mean that’s what it has to be. There have been loads of suggestions to make Physick a viable option for Summoners, but for whatever reason the developers just flat out to refuse to even remove it and replace it with a proper dps ability.

Whether they refuse because of community attitudes towards healing spells (‘we don’t want them’), because of ‘balance’ (not sure Summoner is going to become a guaranteed raid spot just because it can use Physick and actually heal someone lol), or because of some misguided belief that it would make Summoner ‘too complicated’, is really anyone’s guess lol

Even though properly scaling Physick wouldn’t be ‘necessary’ for Summoner, I think the point is that sometimes it’s ok for skills to be ‘situational’ or ‘contextual’. It wouldn’t affect Summoner’s dps or rotations, it would just give them an option to throw out potential back-up heals in extreme circumstances. And considering everyone on the forums is always complaining about ‘healers bad’ etc, I think it’s fine to for some jobs to have the ability to support healers if needed lol. I mean, it’s always said that healers have so much pressure and that everything needs to be easier for them, but surely if more jobs are able to help them it relieves some of that pressure from the role?

[Axxion]

I don’t think anyone is making the point that Summoners should be using Physick currently. I think the point is that the developers have never made Physick actually useable for Summoners. It’s just a dead button for the majority of the game.

But just because that’s what it is doesn’t mean that’s what it has to be. There have been loads of suggestions to make Physick a viable option for Summoners, but for whatever reason the developers just flat out to refuse to even remove it and replace it with a proper dps ability.

Whether they refuse because of community attitudes towards healing spells (‘we don’t want them’), because of ‘balance’ (not sure Summoner is going to become a guaranteed raid spot just because it can use Physick and actually heal someone lol), or because of some misguided belief that it would make Summoner ‘too complicated’, is really anyone’s guess lol

Even though properly scaling Physick wouldn’t be ‘necessary’ for Summoner, I think the point is that sometimes it’s ok for skills to be ‘situational’ or ‘contextual’. It wouldn’t affect Summoner’s dps or rotations, it would just give them an option to throw out potential back-up heals in extreme circumstances. And considering everyone on the forums is always complaining about ‘healers bad’ etc, I think it’s fine to for some jobs to have the ability to support healers if needed lol. I mean, it’s always said that healers have so much pressure and that everything needs to be easier for them, but surely if more jobs are able to help them it relieves some of that pressure from the role?

just to chime on that. during the live letter before endwalker launched it seems that they "forgotten" that it even a button. The reason why i say that is during the changes to smn, keep in mind that they did mention there was two different version of the smn and we go the one with pet flavored actions. They was wiling to get rid of the rez before the heal.

[Ggwppino]

Here you break through an already open door. I don't think there's anyone against something as sensible as changing a freaking variable in the game code and it scales to int. It is inexcusable that in 2023 this ability has not yet been fixed. But the smn problem isn't just Physick. The problem with smn is also that it's bland and it is a fact.

[Renathras]

Yes, but you're the same one who says that the current smn is fine as it is. But you're blaming its bland essence on raiders.

I'm saying the reason for the change are because of raiders. I'm not saying SMN is bland or that I find it disagreeable. I think SMN is the only DPS Job in the game that is really enjoyable to play, has good party utility, seems to be balanced in damage output (that is, it doesn't do so little that no one brings it to raids and it's not topping the charts like SAM due to having utility and not being selfish so it isn't dominating, either), and it's widely played (and presumably enjoyed) by a lot of Caster players. Collectively, this indicates it is fine as it is.

You also practically misrepresented the words in that post,

Which words? Be specific, please.

I'm generally opposed to people making nebulous "kitchen sink" statements that could be true or false but are impossible to even address unless they give specifics, and because someone's trying to use one as a rampant derailing ad hominem in another thread (not saying you are, but they are), I'd like to get the specifics of what you're thinking here before addressing it further, if at all.

Also a small curiosity: why should a smn after lvl 25 use Physick?

EDIT: Before you quote me, I'd like to withdraw the Physick line since you were talking about pre-50. Let me step back when I'm wrong.

Physic is pretty useful when working on your ARR Relic, even now. That "Surprise!" FATE where you have to keep at least one NPC guard alive while fighting all those Kobols is REALLY good if you can patch them up while also drawing the enemies (and was already really hard on SMN since you can't Titan tank them). Several other FATEs also have NPCs to keep up or are a boss-type fight where they hit kinda hard on non-Tanks, so having the ability to heal yourself can really help. When you only have 1500 HP or so, a 600 HP cure is actually still pretty useful. I did my SMN one in 5.3 or so, and found Physic was useful for all the FATEs I was soloing.

It's also dubiously useful in PotD, and is useful in solo instances like the SMN Job quests in that level range. This is partly true no matter what gear you're wearing (even pure INT gear) because stats on gear up to level 50 are low enough that the +10 mind vs not having it leaves the spell still doing pretty close to the same potency. And also as Ty pointed out, if you actually wear the combined Caster/Healer gear of ARR, it has INT and MND both on it, meaning SMN is doing as much healing with Physic at those levels in that gear as SCH. (Now I'm kinda wondering if doing PotD level 1-50 content is easier or harder on SMN if you wear that gear...probably harder, but it's amusing to consider...)

Not saying it's much, but it does have some niche uses.

Also: I tip my hat to your EDIT. Lots of people won't do that. So fair enough and I won't hammer you on it (I probably wouldn't have anyway and would have just said the above, but I definitely try not to hammer people for admitted honest mistakes). I'd rather praise someone doing it than anything.

Technically, Physick is quite usable until you get proper level 50 gear or start wearing your level 45 ARR relic gear, as from levels 1 - 50, casters and healers share the same gear which is equip-pable by all Disciplines of War or Magic that offers both INT and MND at the same time. There's still not much of a reason to do so normally, but it is as roughly effective as Vercure is up until that point, so in a pinch, you actually can save yourself or someone else with it. Cutters Cry, for example, seems to shake up a lot of sprouts with The Dragon's Voice and The Ram's Voice, which I think are still untelegraphed since it's an optional pre-50 dungeon?

Yup, all this.

Honestly, I wish they still did that for leveling gear in all the other expansions. It's just so much more convenient for leveling an alt Job, and it SHOULDN'T be game-breaking since the cases of wanting that INT and MND on gear would be limited to......well, just SMN, and just for Physic. So it shouldn't be game breaking at all and would cut down on the art workload (so they could do other artsy things) and shouldn't upset any balances because people will upgrade to the level cap entry level cap Job gear (the freebie stuff they give us) and then the entry level cap tome gear first chance they get anyway.

Wasn't trying to be snippy, for the record. It came to mind more just because I find it interesting how a button can go from niche but usable to, usable only for the fact that it technically charges the party's limit break yet restores less HP than auto-healing once you start wearing of casting gear. But also it's a good reminder for anyone passing by that you can still use it in leveling dungeons and whatnot if needed.

Yeah, though to truly benefit from it, you'd have to carry some level 49 DoM gear to throw on when you saw that you'd zoned into an instance less than level 50.

Though...wait, does it fill the LB gauge somehow usefully? Or did you more mean "it technically does this, but less than even just casing Ruin and I'm mentioning it only for the sake of completeness"?

But just because that’s what it is doesn’t mean that’s what it has to be.

This. In a game where Vercure and Clemency exist, and where SCH and SMN have been completely separated other than Resurrection, there's no logic to SMN Physic not being at least a Vercure-lite. (Go to Actions and Traits on SCH and you'll see that ONLY Res is listed as coming from Arcanist; I remember when ShB hit that my SCH's Physic was grayed out and listed as ACN/SMN, so it's a separate ability in the game code from "Physic B", the SCH one. Which means there's LITERALLY no reason it couldn't be changed to INT scale since the SCH one is a separate ability that would still scale from MND just fine, and with no Cross-Class abilities, you wouldn't have to worry about weird interactions like, say, THM/BLM Cross-Classing the ACN/SMN one for some kind of "unfair advantage" or something.)

just to chime on that. during the live letter before endwalker launched it seems that they "forgotten" that it even a button. The reason why i say that is during the changes to smn, keep in mind that they did mention there was two different version of the smn and we go the one with pet flavored actions. They was wiling to get rid of the rez before the heal.

Agree. It's like they just forgot about it. They outright mentioned Resurrection and debating keeping it, but seem to have just...forgotten...that Physic even existed.

Here you break through an already open door. I don't think there's anyone against something as sensible as changing a freaking variable in the game code and it scales to int. It is inexcusable that in 2023 this ability has not yet been fixed.

Agreed.

The problem with smn is also that it's bland and it is a fact.

Disagreed.

It being bland is a subjective opinion, not a fact, and not an opinion everyone agrees with. Remember the difference between the two - not trying to be pedantic, just so we're on the same page:

"That painting has red paint." (Fact...well, if we assume the painting has red paint, and let's for this situation.)
"The red in that painting is pretty." (Opinion - not everyone finds red pretty, or that red pretty, and whether or not red is pretty isn't a factual statement, it's an opinion. As would be finding it ugly.)

"bland" is a taste, so generally, it's going to be an opinion. I don't find SMN bland at all. /shrug I'm not saying this to diss you, I just feel a lot of these discussions would work out better if people didn't state, of non-factual opinions, "it is a fact".

[Ggwppino]

It being bland is a subjective opinion, not a fact, and not an opinion everyone agrees with. Remember the difference between the two - not trying to be pedantic, just so we're on the same page:

"That painting has red paint." (Fact...well, if we assume the painting has red paint, and let's for this situation.)
"The red in that painting is pretty." (Opinion - not everyone finds red pretty, or that red pretty, and whether or not red is pretty isn't a factual statement, it's an opinion. As would be finding it ugly.)

"bland" is a taste, so generally, it's going to be an opinion. I don't find SMN bland at all. /shrug I'm not saying this to diss you, I just feel a lot of these discussions would work out better if people didn't state, of non-factual opinions, "it is a fact".

We have come to a conclusion on the fact that subjectively you may like the state of the smn while I don't.
Bland intended that smn lacks a HIS mechanic that differentiates it from the others and not having it testifies to the fact that it is bland, because the smn is recognized for its fantastic VFX but not for its unique gameplay.

Furthermore, the smn has some big problems that I think are for all to see:
1) the pet is a dummy. if you solve this fact, this make the smn less bland by giving it an identity that is not just VFX.
2) Physick
3) The healings stricted to a fixed dps rotation, solving it and giving the smn a task that has currently been deprived by the designers themselves, because it is often insignificant.
4) the gapcloser, which in addition to being cluncky, is mandatory in your rotation for a melee """"combo"""" for its own sake: first of all it would be advisable to revisit the gapcloser because of the animation lock, but above all it would be advisable justify it, perhaps with an elemental that foresees attacks at semi close range, enhancing its hypothetical usefulness, because currently it is an end in itself. Furthermore, the gapcloser is present in an elemental that is *usually* used with "attention" in dead and not agitated moments due to (practically the only) 5 seconds of cast, causing the mandatory gapcloser to lose all its hypothetical usefulness.
5) Levelling, because I think smn leveling is one of the most boring in the history of videogames. Because it does not give any sense of gameplay progression, but remains fixed.
6) Aetherflow kit, which actually I don't find it a serious problem, but it's annoying that 2 buttons could be used for something else instead they are just redundant buttons. Too much importance for off global skills with one minute CD.
7) The smn does not make choices. His whole rotation is based on obligatory. smn is forced to use ALL of titan, smn is forced to use ALL of garuda, and smn is forced to use ALL of ifrit. The smn doesn't have to think and doesn't have to choose. Elemental abilities instead of being exploited for their gameplay characteristics, are used because they have to be used. This point is related to point 4

So no, the smn is not ok

Once these points have been solved, which I think are still points, we can discuss adding complexity in the optimizations, or well, adding optimizations in this case which I think is healthy to have because it does not involve disadvantages for those who want to play chill and it brings fun for people who would like a little spice in their gameplay playing the class they thematically love.

Btw bland is a term you used and I wanted to tie in with. Like in rap freestyles xD. The smn gameplay I would consider empty, without interest from designers, but even bland seemed ok to me.

[ty_taurus]

Here you break through an already open door. I don't think there's anyone against something as sensible as changing a freaking variable in the game code and it scales to int. It is inexcusable that in 2023 this ability has not yet been fixed. But the smn problem isn't just Physick. The problem with smn is also that it's bland and it is a fact.

Oh absolutely. It was just a casual thought that happened while glancing through the thread.

Though...wait, does it fill the LB gauge somehow usefully? Or did you more mean "it technically does this, but less than even just casing Ruin and I'm mentioning it only for the sake of completeness"?

Yes, it does fill the LB gauge by a miniscule amount per cast, so it's technically beneficial to spam Physick during boss transitions where nothing is targetable. Whether or not the amount of LB you gain will matter and whether or not it's worth the MP to spam Physick that way is another story.

[Axxion]

I'm saying the reason for the change are because of raiders. I'm not saying SMN is bland or that I find it disagreeable. I think SMN is the only DPS Job in the game that is really enjoyable to play, has good party utility, seems to be balanced in damage output (that is, it doesn't do so little that no one brings it to raids and it's not topping the charts like SAM due to having utility and not being selfish so it isn't dominating, either), and it's widely played (and presumably enjoyed) by a lot of Caster players. Collectively, this indicates it is fine as it is.




Which words? Be specific, please.

I'm generally opposed to people making nebulous "kitchen sink" statements that could be true or false but are impossible to even address unless they give specifics, and because someone's trying to use one as a rampant derailing ad hominem in another thread (not saying you are, but they are), I'd like to get the specifics of what you're thinking here before addressing it further, if at all.



Physic is pretty useful when working on your ARR Relic, even now. That "Surprise!" FATE where you have to keep at least one NPC guard alive while fighting all those Kobols is REALLY good if you can patch them up while also drawing the enemies (and was already really hard on SMN since you can't Titan tank them). Several other FATEs also have NPCs to keep up or are a boss-type fight where they hit kinda hard on non-Tanks, so having the ability to heal yourself can really help. When you only have 1500 HP or so, a 600 HP cure is actually still pretty useful. I did my SMN one in 5.3 or so, and found Physic was useful for all the FATEs I was soloing.

It's also dubiously useful in PotD, and is useful in solo instances like the SMN Job quests in that level range. This is partly true no matter what gear you're wearing (even pure INT gear) because stats on gear up to level 50 are low enough that the +10 mind vs not having it leaves the spell still doing pretty close to the same potency. And also as Ty pointed out, if you actually wear the combined Caster/Healer gear of ARR, it has INT and MND both on it, meaning SMN is doing as much healing with Physic at those levels in that gear as SCH. (Now I'm kinda wondering if doing PotD level 1-50 content is easier or harder on SMN if you wear that gear...probably harder, but it's amusing to consider...)

Not saying it's much, but it does have some niche uses.

Also: I tip my hat to your EDIT. Lots of people won't do that. So fair enough and I won't hammer you on it (I probably wouldn't have anyway and would have just said the above, but I definitely try not to hammer people for admitted honest mistakes). I'd rather praise someone doing it than anything.



Yup, all this.

Honestly, I wish they still did that for leveling gear in all the other expansions. It's just so much more convenient for leveling an alt Job, and it SHOULDN'T be game-breaking since the cases of wanting that INT and MND on gear would be limited to......well, just SMN, and just for Physic. So it shouldn't be game breaking at all and would cut down on the art workload (so they could do other artsy things) and shouldn't upset any balances because people will upgrade to the level cap entry level cap Job gear (the freebie stuff they give us) and then the entry level cap tome gear first chance they get anyway.



Yeah, though to truly benefit from it, you'd have to carry some level 49 DoM gear to throw on when you saw that you'd zoned into an instance less than level 50.

Though...wait, does it fill the LB gauge somehow usefully? Or did you more mean "it technically does this, but less than even just casing Ruin and I'm mentioning it only for the sake of completeness"?



This. In a game where Vercure and Clemency exist, and where SCH and SMN have been completely separated other than Resurrection, there's no logic to SMN Physic not being at least a Vercure-lite. (Go to Actions and Traits on SCH and you'll see that ONLY Res is listed as coming from Arcanist; I remember when ShB hit that my SCH's Physic was grayed out and listed as ACN/SMN, so it's a separate ability in the game code from "Physic B", the SCH one. Which means there's LITERALLY no reason it couldn't be changed to INT scale since the SCH one is a separate ability that would still scale from MND just fine, and with no Cross-Class abilities, you wouldn't have to worry about weird interactions like, say, THM/BLM Cross-Classing the ACN/SMN one for some kind of "unfair advantage" or something.)



Agree. It's like they just forgot about it. They outright mentioned Resurrection and debating keeping it, but seem to have just...forgotten...that Physic even existed.



Agreed.



Disagreed.

It being bland is a subjective opinion, not a fact, and not an opinion everyone agrees with. Remember the difference between the two - not trying to be pedantic, just so we're on the same page:

"That painting has red paint." (Fact...well, if we assume the painting has red paint, and let's for this situation.)
"The red in that painting is pretty." (Opinion - not everyone finds red pretty, or that red pretty, and whether or not red is pretty isn't a factual statement, it's an opinion. As would be finding it ugly.)

"bland" is a taste, so generally, it's going to be an opinion. I don't find SMN bland at all. /shrug I'm not saying this to diss you, I just feel a lot of these discussions would work out better if people didn't state, of non-factual opinions, "it is a fact".

Now im going to assume here. You are saying that the changes for smn is because of the raiders? it was not

Here is the thing if they decide to take that direction of smn its fine give us a list of smn and add them to gems or do a different combination to have a different demi summon however from what im seeing is that going forward thats nothing really going to change. Hear me out. We had the exact same summons since AAR. Promised of egi glamours etc. People always asked for more summons but never got them.

For me i want summoner to be about the pets and not the player itself. I dont want to channel the power of titan to do the move i want titan to stay out in the field doing the actions that i tell them todo like. ( which i already know that they cant fix the ai for)

to me the dots system was alright but looking through on why they removed "The Job Actions of the Summoner had reached its limits. It was barely possible to add new Job Actions, so we decided to do a massive overhaul with the release of 6.0.. The first concept of this overhaul was to remove all DoTs." for pet focus actions That being said, its get you thinking on what was the other concepts they had for smn.

Source: https://www.siliconera.com/yoshi-p-e...xiv-endwalker/

and join the club about the class change. Ive been told several times that, if you like something keep playing it nothing more nothing less

[Lancet]

As much as i want to see Ramuh Shiva and Leviathan, we might not be able to because it will make moves such as aether flow energy drain ruin 3 ruin 4 and painflare obsolete, I can see why will just get another demi summon in 7.0 i suppose only time will tell.