Anyone else think caster has suffered this expansion? (hopes for the future)

[Elissar]

I liked BLM changes.

[Lyth]

Res utility is also a rather serious problem. Say what you will about lore. Black Mage not having a res is just as serious a problem as SMN/RDM having a res.

There's a relatively simple way to resolve the issue around raise. You just need to limit the number of uses you have access to as a team across the entire fight, and perhaps add a recast timer to the non-healer raises.

That party total can vary with content difficulty (i.e. unlimited in normal difficulty, but perhaps limit 1-4 uses per pull in raid content). Perhaps add a couple of other jobs that can provide the same service as an alternative (i.e. MCH defibrillator/jumper cables or DNC dans macabre). If you do this, being an odd job out that doesn't have a raise isn't a big deal, even in prog. I don't think it will add to the difficulty too much, because multiple deaths are going to result in failed dps checks anyways.

Adding a mitigation tool to BLM is probably no big deal, because enervating spells fit with the theme. My one worry is that there tends to be a mitigation arms race within roles. The point of having a role defensive is that it's supposed to cover everyone's needs. Once you start adding in an 'extra' defensive on one job, everyone else starts demanding it as well. You've seen it with tanks, and you're seeing it here too. It gets to the point where mitigation kits get unnecessarily bloated, and you need increasing amounts of damage to actually make players feel like they're at risk.

[Valence]

Too many raising jobs already in the game if you ask me. Why do some unicorn dps arbitrarily provide raises? How do you prevent BLM to spamm raise under Umbral Ice without any mp drawback? That kind of concern...

[Tamaerl]

Adding a mitigation tool to BLM is probably no big deal, because enervating spells fit with the theme. My one worry is that there tends to be a mitigation arms race within roles. The point of having a role defensive is that it's supposed to cover everyone's needs. Once you start adding in an 'extra' defensive on one job, everyone else starts demanding it as well. You've seen it with tanks, and you're seeing it here too. It gets to the point where mitigation kits get unnecessarily bloated, and you need increasing amounts of damage to actually make players feel like they're at risk.

I agree that adding an extra mitigation tool to BLM is fine. I would argue that if any job could use an extra mitigation tool, it's BLM since it currently has the fewest number of defensive tools.
I would like to see 3 things added as a BLM main:
1. return of manawall in some capacity or another (for example, maybe as a 50% mitigation buff with a 4-6s duration and a 30s cooldown?)
2. Aetherial manipulation made into a ground-targeted skill
3. Ultima (enough said)

[CelestiCer]

BLM by far is the most perfectly designed Job. Out of all the Jobs, it needs the least changes. Let alone amongst Casters. RDM ranks at the top for needing any QOL changes as it is suffering the most from Utility Tax and Ranged Tax over SMN and BLM. Comparing both shields of RDM vs BLM...




Both same cast time and recast of 120 seconds cooldown



While a party utility shield to reduce magic damage by 10% for 10 seconds is nice for the party to have, the RDM lacks self mitigation vs BLM's Manaward that nullifies 30% damage of all types for double the duration " for themselves. BLM even obtains this way earlier at lv30 vs RDM at lv86... that's a lot of levels and content...

RDM unironically have less mobility then BLM if they want to fully upkeep their rotation due to aethereal manipulation and RDM's melee rapier stab in fights. And lets not start with DPS performance comparison of the two. And the only argument everyone keeps throwing at RDM is " well it has a Raise, next topic. So about my BLM doing not enough damage right, needing more mobility and I want that raise RDM has... " =.=; like wha? ( you lot must be off your trolleys )

BLM is fine, the attention should be on RDM first and SMN 2nd probably more aimed on its gameplay as it isn't really suffering from the biggest of issues either other then " Fun/Nuance/Optional-Complexity " that SMN mains pre-rework used to love but aren't experiencing through having been lobotomized.

[Lyth]

...

I think I've already answered that in my post, but let me expand on it.

The dev team mentioned that they had considered removing SMN's raise during the rework, but decided to leave it in. The reason is likely because having extra raises around helps out in casual DF/roulette content where one/both healers may not know any of the mechanics and consistently die. At the same time, you don't want players to preferentially bring jobs with raises into raid content, because having greater access to it during progression does accelerate your learning of the fights.

There are about four different ways that I can come up with to limit access to raise:
1) Limit the number of times a DPS raise can be used per fight. This can scale with difficulty (i.e. unlimited in roulette content, 1-4 uses in raid content depending on difficulty).
2) Add a recast on DPS raises (i.e. Verraise: Instant, restores target to full health, but 120 second recast).
3) Share recasts between DPS raises (i.e. Verraise puts Resurrection on recast, negating the benefit of having a second DPS raise).
4) Limit the total number of DPS raise uses you have per pull (i.e. if Verraise has only 2 uses, and Resurrection has only 2 uses, using either decreases both by 1).

The first two approaches limit the impact that DPS raises have. We've already seen the first idea experimented with in Variant/Criterion, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's a consideration going forward into 7.0. The second prevents you from spamming raise.

The last two approaches limit the advantage of bringing more DPS raises in your group, because they share recasts and uses. It doesn't really matter if multiple DPS jobs bring raises, because access to additional DPS raises is made redundant. It's been ages since I've played Warcraft, but I remember that historically there was fairly strict limitations placed on so called 'Battle Rez' abilities to keep this sort of thing in check. We probably need our own set of limitations on raise as well. I will note that the SMN/SCH shared toolkit may create some technical issues with the above approaches, but perhaps the solution is to replace SMN's Resurrection with a unique raise (perhaps Phoenix themed).

[Valence]

Well, you know what was the real limitation to raises back in the days right? MP management. Hasn't been an issue since ShB because they nuked it out of the sky. I'm not even sure why they keep MP those days tbh.

But hey, I think the recast timer on dps raises is an elegant enough solution for sure.

[Taranok]

There's a relatively simple way to resolve the issue around raise. You just need to limit the number of uses you have access to as a team across the entire fight, and perhaps add a recast timer to the non-healer raises.

Adding a mitigation tool to BLM is probably no big deal...

On the first bit, I believe BLM should get a raise. Call it Defibrilate. Make it an oGCD, cost 0 mana (not like BLM cares,) and give it something like a 5m cooldown. You get 1, maybe 2 in an entire fight. For RDM, give it a much more expensive mana cost. Something like 5000 mana. For SMN, make it a 120+ second cooldown. That said I also like the concept of limiting resing. My favorite fights all come from Baldesion Arsenal and Delubrum Reginae Savage, a lot of the times because the mechanics are easy, but messing up a mechanic might eventually kill you, and deaths sting hard.

BLM is the easiest to use but you can only use it once. SMN is middling but still limited. RDM can be used repeatedly but is mana expensive (fix RDM's mana economy as well since they can't chain res.) Or, obviously, get rid of res.

For adding mit tools to BLM (and SMN,) they can add Apocatstasis for BLM as an aoe magick barrier, and SMN can get whatever Garuda's barrier is from extreme/ultimate. Make it identical to magick barrier for all purposes. Problem solved and casters can have this utility. You know, as the devs slowly turn all casters into ranged DPS because they don't want the BLM playstyle.

[StarfallAssassin]

BLM by far is the most perfectly designed Job. Out of all the Jobs, it needs the least changes. Let alone amongst Casters. RDM ranks at the top for needing any QOL changes as it is suffering the most from Utility Tax and Ranged Tax over SMN and BLM. Comparing both shields of RDM vs BLM.

So, idk how much BLM you play but everything about what you have said about it, especially in comparison to RDM is just demonstrably wrong. starting with Magick Barrier and Manaward.

yes Manaward having a 30% max hp shield is nice but, magick barrier very much provides far more actual mitigation and potential mitigation of the two. put simply the PARTY MIT gives more to overall damage reduction than manaward. to compare the two is folly. it would be better to compare vercure and manaward and not magick barrier. even still, magick barrier is one of the strongest party mits for the mit it gives and the increased healing to everyone.

for movement, yes RDMs movement is restrictive, to say it has less than BLM is wrong. in an 5 second interval (2 standard GCDs) RDM will get 3.5s of free movement vs the .5-1s of BLM (assuming you know how to slidecast) without taking into account abilities and if we do. we get this:

BLM has aethereal manipulation, 2 triple casts, swiftcast, paradox in umbral ice IF YOU ARE IN IT and 4 xenoglossys. implying they play the class wrong, they have 12 gcds of movement up whenever they want plus a target dash that will clip your casts as an ABSOLUTE maximum. this does not happen in normal play. Scathe can also be used but would you rather a 877.7 FIRE 4 potency or scathe at 157.3 with a 20% chance to double it. and if you double hit that is still 400-500 potency lost.

RDM has 2 accelerations, swiftcast and dualcast every other cast and their melee combo which gives them free movement for a little over 5 gcds of movement. totaling to 9 casts for free and dualcasts coming in swinging for up to 12 instant casts a minute at absolute max. and reprise as the scathe counterpart from which you lose 65.52 potency in opportunity cost to mana, which means the ability is a little bit better than, say jolting twice in a row. but offers free movement

again, this does not happen in normal play. however, what does happen is random movements within fights that you need to worry about. RDM being allowed to hold their melee combo for forced movement which outright beats triplecast for BLM. meaning that BLM would have to save two triples for a movement to equal the distance that RDM can travel. if boss isn't in melee, it becomes neck and neck but RDM dualcast still allows them to keep moving to handle mechs without dropping casts or clipping.

This is all to say that RDM does have a lot of movement, more so than BLM.in terms of damage, yes BLM does more damage than the other casters but the difference is not high enough to justify it

why take a BLM when the other casters offer more utility, similar raid damage and are overall easier to play???? especially as SE continues to create fights that have forced movement.

BLM needs to be looked. far more than the others. SMN needs more abilities and complexity, that will come with time, RDM really needs damage and doesn't feel good in forced movement fights.
BLM needs more damage, feels worse than RDM in forced movement fights and need it's button bloat shaved significantly (looking at 32 including sprint but not including food, potion and LB though many people would add that to their bar), and it needs an actual class identity and not the timers as they add truly nothing to the class rather than force an implied rotation and definitely not sit still and cast as that should be the role of the caster classes as a whole

[Valence]

Comparing personal barriers like Manaward and party mitigations like Magick Barrier is a bit silly in my opinion. You'll use the latter to help the party mitigate party wides, and the former to alleviate on heals, or recover from when things go wrong.

Hephaistos doorboss was especially egregious for RDM compared to the two other casters for the simple reason that the Stomp Dead chain mechanic literally shredded every caster and healer due to their lower physical defense and HP pool (which tends to be the case with every one of those rare party wide physical attacks). BLM and SMN could stand on their own by popping their personal shield, but RDM and healers were completely dead in the water for this (although healers could use stuff like benison on themselves). After that kind of stuff I'll never underestimate the power of personal shields tbh.